:) The Summers sisters FTW - it just makes me sad and stabby that people hate both characters; and/or that people focus on Dawn's relationship to Spike to the absolute exclusion of her relationship with Buffy. I mean, Buffy gave up her LIFE to save her sister (and the world). It's like you said, sisterly love trumps everything
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it just makes me sad and stabby that people hate both characters; and/or that people focus on Dawn's relationship to Spike to the absolute exclusion of her relationship with Buffy.
Yes, this. :( Not so much stabby because I guess because live and let live, but incredibly sad. Because babies.
I was writing a response to you before btw and LJ gobbled it up - stupid, stupid LJ.
Wow. Bad LJ, bad!
You've been on my mind lately! How have you been? I'm way behind in posting the link to your story - will do that TOMORROW, no fail. (I'm finally pulling myself out of the cave of depression, little by little.)
I've been okay! Mostly flopping around with very little drive to do anything, but luckily I don't actually have a lot of uni this semester. Still, very floppy. Sorry to hear about your cave o' depression, happy to hear it's going upward! <3
And ahah, no worries about linking to my story. I forgot you were even going to do that.
luckily I don't actually have a lot of uni this semester
What's your major (or interest, which are not always the same things, are they?)
And thank you muchly for the support. I've tried to accept that it's an up and down thing; but it's so easy when I'm on one end of the other to think "this is the way it's going to be forever". They've done studies - people with depression can experience happiness but have a very hard time remembering it. I was mentioning this to my best friend last night and that's been her experience as well.
I saw that post! But I was unsure whether/how to reply, since it was so personal.
I appreciate the fact that you saw it, even. Replying to it is totally up to you IF you want to. I honestly didn't expect anyone to reply. And, the whole conversation starts going more toward the show Riley and less towards my own anyway. Which normally would be of no interest to me either but apparently I have things to "exorcise".
What's your major (or interest, which are not always the same things, are they?)
Asian Studies, with a focus on Japanese language. Just your regular manga geek. ;) Though I've been exceedingly into US TV shows recently. ... are you watching any shows? I watched Ringer for the SMG and recently went through the two seasons of Once Upon A Time.
And thank you muchly for the support. I've tried to accept that it's an up and down thing; but it's so easy when I'm on one end of the other to think "this is the way it's going to be forever". They've done studies - people with depression can experience happiness but have a very hard time remembering it. I was mentioning this to my best friend last night and that's been her experience as well.
Oh, I can definitely attest to that study. Sometimes you just sit there and wonder "is there ever gonna be a time when I/things won't be this way?" And then you get really sad. :(
I appreciate the fact that you saw it, even. Replying to it is totally up to you IF you want to. I honestly didn't expect
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are you watching any shows? I watched Ringer for the SMG and recently went through the two seasons of Once Upon A Time.I'm not much of a tv watcher; my sweetie likes to watch things before bed so we'll watch together on Netflix. I did watch Ringer on my own also, for SMG as you did; I wouldn't have otherwise. (I have some rants about some of the stereotypes on that show and missteps. I'll save them for another time.) I've seen Bones through the end of S7 (I ended up disliking it by mid S3 and the mindfuckery has gotten worse, but my sweetie likes it) and now we're on S2 of Crossing Jordan on a friend's rec. (Also, I had a crush on Jill Hennessy back when she was on Law & Order in the '90's.) I've seen the first two seasons of Nurse Jackie and liked it but the third season isn't available on Netflix
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(I have some rants about some of the stereotypes on that show and missteps. I'll save them for another time.)
Oh, yes. Did that show ever fail. It was a glorious trainwreck basically.
I've seen Bones through the end of S7 (I ended up disliking it by mid S3 and the mindfuckery has gotten worse, but my sweetie likes it)
Baw, that's sad. :( I vaguely, very vaguely thought maybe I'd give it a try someday. Also I hear good things about Parks and Rec.
Also you have actually watched more TV than I have, I think. But then I don't even own a TV so I just stealth-stream stuff on the internet. I watched a few eps of Glee and was thoroughly unimpressed. The main brand of humor in that series seems to be "nasty".
*Nods* Yes to all of this, exactly so, And sometimes it's beyond "sadness". It's not a "cry and then I'll feel better" sad. It's just always there; sometimes it turns to numbness and apathy or hopelessness, sometimes a rage I have to try to swallow, and then back to hopelessness. And if someone hasn't experienced that, they can't "
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Did that show ever fail. It was a glorious trainwreck basically. Meh. "Glorious trainwreck" is too dignified a phrase for it. I liked the "moral ambiguity" - and from what I saw in interviews with Sarah, that was exactly her intention: the series was actually getting more interesting when it concentrated on the sisters and their relationship, as well as their reversals of fortune rather than plot mechanics - if it had started out closer to that level, we might have had something. It needed to be more intelligent from the get-go, not "clever". There's a difference
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Oh, no, I was going to post it here; as I said, I was just worried I'd be like. Precluding YOUR thinky-thoughts or something. Which I don't wanted to accidentally end up doing.Have you SEEN the length of my comments/replies? Hon, no worries, that's what LJ is all about, to me. You can't proclude my thoughts and more likely you'll just enrich them or get me going. I LOVE conversation, (as long as a certain modicum of civility and consideration is in place, y'know?) that's what brought me to this fandom
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His betrayal of her trust is pretty huge to me and almost no one in fandom pays much attention to it
I think I've seen several Riley smackdowns around? elisi in particular (hi, I'm a professional lurker :'D) has written Riley-related meta.
but how did we get from Riley cheating on her "repeatedly, with professionals" as mcjulie has said, from him getting suck jobs in Listening to Fear, making love to buffy at the beginning of ITW, then the next time we see him, she's found him getting another suckjob - to Xander being the voice of the writers who claimed (according to Jane Espenson) that it really was all Buffy's fault? WTF?????
Because she didn't love him enough, duh! ... is probably the rationale they came up with, which is gross. Or rather, the question often seems to be whether she loved him at all. Or whether she "let him in" etc. And the fact that he felt like she didn't somehow makes him right and his behavior negligible. :| IT'S GROSS.
The Riley-Dawn connection is something I started working out by accident looking at those
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NOW. Here's what I originally wrote in reply to your comment where you compared Blood Ties and Into the Woods"So I'm guessing the parallel is that they both self-harm as a means of self-actualization? Finding out what that "self" even is; what constitutes it, what it is comprised of? And of course, I have to ask, what's the Buffy of it? What is the parallel in how both Dawn and Riley relate to Buffy? I think I once read a Joss quote where he said Dawn was Buffy's love interest for season five. For Dawn to become that, Riley had to go -- and I've read the argument that this is also a problematic portrayal. As if as long as a man's around, the woman cannot focus on anyone else. Though OTOH we then have Spike, who is an aspiring love interest and sort of maneuvers himself into that position (or, well, is maneuvered there by the writers). Which makes the whole thing not even that different in narrative structure, I guess
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I did read elisi's blog and commented on it last Sept, and still agree with all of my comments then.- I think except for molly_may most commenters and elisi were more - sympathetic for Riley. Elisi made some terrific points in her meta but the repetition of "Buffy was bad for Riley" - whoa, wait, what
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Thanks for the links! I enjoyed reading those metas. Because unjustified Buffy-blaming will never not be a sore spot. And I definitely agree Riley had massive internalized misogyny issues. Like, I think he honestly meant well, but he had all that military/wholesome family/chivalry crap internalized and never really analyzed it. Add to that a good dose of "all girls want bad boys" stereotypes and you've got yourself one ugly breakdown. Which I think is what's uncomfortable about Buffy vs. Dracula -- because I feel it kind of WAS portrayed that way? Hell, that stereotype is associated with Buffy in ways where it is sometimes hard to see that nope, it isn't so simple. And I rewatched the episode a while ago and noticed just how uncomfortable Buffy was with basically all of Dracula's advances. Just. Ugh.
WORD. In my experience the "genuine article" very rarely is "romantic". Romance is generally sold to us as a feeling that just happens - and if its not there it's not really love - and in our culture you're supposed to just move on. Or
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And I definitely agree Riley had massive internalized misogyny issues. Like, I think he honestly meant well, but he had all that military/wholesome family/chivalry crap internalized and never really analyzed it. Add to that a good dose of "all girls want bad boys" stereotypes and you've got yourself one ugly breakdown.
YES. it was handled well in a lot of ways, whatever my impatience with the "poor Riley" implications pretty early on. But his behavior is IC, and the issue is one that affects women especially: being the "mindreaders" and knowing what everyone else needs, putting aside their own needs for everyone else. then the show just bolloxed it up by indicating that's exactly what Buffy should have done. Hence my issue with the whole thing.
And I rewatched the episode a while ago and noticed just how uncomfortable Buffy was with basically all of Dracula's advances. Just. Ugh.Right? Again, vampirism has been associated with sexuality and rape since the beginning of the series, and Buffy is clearly under his thrall; she even hangs
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And just so much YES to your Riley & Dawn thoughts. I don't have the background knowledge in sci fi/cyberpunk that you do. I was kept my comments rather brief here (for me anyway) in case I did post a longer meta but we're pretty much thinking along the same lines here.
I think I once read a Joss quote where he said Dawn was Buffy's love interest for season five. For Dawn to become that, Riley had to go -- and I've read the argument that this is also a problematic portrayal. As if as long as a man's around, the woman cannot focus on anyone else.
YES. THIS. I said the same thing on one of my first posts here, also last September, Pt#3 of the meta: http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/1857.html A lot of that meta was me figuring stuff out and I probably would alter now, but that item hasn't changed at all.
Though OTOH we then have Spike, who is an aspiring love interest and sort of maneuvers himself into that position...Which makes the whole thing not even that
( ... )
That theme has been central to horror & sci-fi genres though, hasn't it? Which has it's origins all the way back to creation myths, then fairy tales and such. From Pinocchio to the Golem, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein to Philip K Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
I've read a good deal of meta and tend to forget where my information comes from.
Same here. It was easier back in the day before the internet. I had the library and real book/magazines/newpapers, only a limited number of sources in front of me. Now? Fucking endless. There is no way for the brain to keep track of where you get every little idea or piece of information, once it becomes encoded into your CPU so to speak.
But OTOH Spike's crush-antics take up quite a bit of space. I guess this is one of those things where a tally would help.
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Yes, this. :( Not so much stabby because I guess because live and let live, but incredibly sad. Because babies.
I was writing a response to you before btw and LJ gobbled it up - stupid, stupid LJ.
Wow. Bad LJ, bad!
You've been on my mind lately! How have you been? I'm way behind in posting the link to your story - will do that TOMORROW, no fail. (I'm finally pulling myself out of the cave of depression, little by little.)
I've been okay! Mostly flopping around with very little drive to do anything, but luckily I don't actually have a lot of uni this semester. Still, very floppy. Sorry to hear about your cave o' depression, happy to hear it's going upward! <3
And ahah, no worries about linking to my story. I forgot you were even going to do that.
Also, the Tara meta? On hold but not forgotten.
Excellent. :)
the post I did the other day about " ( ... )
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YES.
luckily I don't actually have a lot of uni this semester
What's your major (or interest, which are not always the same things, are they?)
And thank you muchly for the support. I've tried to accept that it's an up and down thing; but it's so easy when I'm on one end of the other to think "this is the way it's going to be forever". They've done studies - people with depression can experience happiness but have a very hard time remembering it. I was mentioning this to my best friend last night and that's been her experience as well.
I saw that post! But I was unsure whether/how to reply, since it was so personal.
I appreciate the fact that you saw it, even. Replying to it is totally up to you IF you want to. I honestly didn't expect anyone to reply. And, the whole conversation starts going more toward the show Riley and less towards my own anyway. Which normally would be of no interest to me either but apparently I have things to "exorcise".
how much of a joke was that? ;)
None whatsoever:
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Reply
Asian Studies, with a focus on Japanese language. Just your regular manga geek. ;) Though I've been exceedingly into US TV shows recently. ... are you watching any shows? I watched Ringer for the SMG and recently went through the two seasons of Once Upon A Time.
And thank you muchly for the support. I've tried to accept that it's an up and down thing; but it's so easy when I'm on one end of the other to think "this is the way it's going to be forever". They've done studies - people with depression can experience happiness but have a very hard time remembering it. I was mentioning this to my best friend last night and that's been her experience as well.
Oh, I can definitely attest to that study. Sometimes you just sit there and wonder "is there ever gonna be a time when I/things won't be this way?" And then you get really sad. :(
I appreciate the fact that you saw it, even. Replying to it is totally up to you IF you want to. I honestly didn't expect ( ... )
Reply
Reply
Oh, yes. Did that show ever fail. It was a glorious trainwreck basically.
I've seen Bones through the end of S7 (I ended up disliking it by mid S3 and the mindfuckery has gotten worse, but my sweetie likes it)
Baw, that's sad. :( I vaguely, very vaguely thought maybe I'd give it a try someday. Also I hear good things about Parks and Rec.
Also you have actually watched more TV than I have, I think. But then I don't even own a TV so I just stealth-stream stuff on the internet. I watched a few eps of Glee and was thoroughly unimpressed. The main brand of humor in that series seems to be "nasty".
*Nods* Yes to all of this, exactly so, And sometimes it's beyond "sadness". It's not a "cry and then I'll feel better" sad. It's just always there; sometimes it turns to numbness and apathy or hopelessness, sometimes a rage I have to try to swallow, and then back to hopelessness. And if someone hasn't experienced that, they can't " ( ... )
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Reply
Reply
I think I've seen several Riley smackdowns around? elisi in particular (hi, I'm a professional lurker :'D) has written Riley-related meta.
but how did we get from Riley cheating on her "repeatedly, with professionals" as mcjulie has said, from him getting suck jobs in Listening to Fear, making love to buffy at the beginning of ITW, then the next time we see him, she's found him getting another suckjob - to Xander being the voice of the writers who claimed (according to Jane Espenson) that it really was all Buffy's fault? WTF?????
Because she didn't love him enough, duh! ... is probably the rationale they came up with, which is gross. Or rather, the question often seems to be whether she loved him at all. Or whether she "let him in" etc. And the fact that he felt like she didn't somehow makes him right and his behavior negligible. :| IT'S GROSS.
The Riley-Dawn connection is something I started working out by accident looking at those ( ... )
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http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2003/03/13/buffy-why-riley-is-not-a-nice-jock/
"In a way, season-five Riley was where Buffy writers began seriously examining misogyny among ordinary men..."
Also gabrielleabelle's breakdown of B/R S5: http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/354693.html
mcjulie's no-nonsense meta on ITW & I will forever love her bottom-line: "He cheated on her. Repeatedly. With professionals." http://mcjulie.livejournal.com/42869.html
I did read elisi's blog and commented on it last Sept, and still agree with all of my comments then.- I think except for molly_may most commenters and elisi were more - sympathetic for Riley. Elisi made some terrific points in her meta but the repetition of "Buffy was bad for Riley" - whoa, wait, what ( ... )
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WORD. In my experience the "genuine article" very rarely is "romantic". Romance is generally sold to us as a feeling that just happens - and if its not there it's not really love - and in our culture you're supposed to just move on. Or ( ... )
Reply
YES. it was handled well in a lot of ways, whatever my impatience with the "poor Riley" implications pretty early on. But his behavior is IC, and the issue is one that affects women especially: being the "mindreaders" and knowing what everyone else needs, putting aside their own needs for everyone else. then the show just bolloxed it up by indicating that's exactly what Buffy should have done. Hence my issue with the whole thing.
And I rewatched the episode a while ago and noticed just how uncomfortable Buffy was with basically all of Dracula's advances. Just. Ugh.Right? Again, vampirism has been associated with sexuality and rape since the beginning of the series, and Buffy is clearly under his thrall; she even hangs ( ... )
Reply
I think I once read a Joss quote where he said Dawn was Buffy's love interest for season five. For Dawn to become that, Riley had to go -- and I've read the argument that this is also a problematic portrayal. As if as long as a man's around, the woman cannot focus on anyone else.
YES. THIS. I said the same thing on one of my first posts here, also last September, Pt#3 of the meta: http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/1857.html A lot of that meta was me figuring stuff out and I probably would alter now, but that item hasn't changed at all.
Though OTOH we then have Spike, who is an aspiring love interest and sort of maneuvers himself into that position...Which makes the whole thing not even that ( ... )
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Naaah I don't really have that knowledge; I was mostly referring to one manga series that I love deeply. :P It thematizes that same conflict a lot.
I said the same thing on one of my first posts here, also last September
Maybe it was you I got it from. I've read a good deal of meta and tend to forget where my information comes from.
It felt like a more feminine season at the time because of Dawn and Joyce, but now I'm not so sure I'd feel the same on rewatch.
It does feel more feminine! But OTOH Spike's crush-antics take up quite a bit of space. I guess this is one of those things where a tally would help.
And, I hadn't gotten anywhere near the point you had in terms of Buffy's role vis a vis Dawn & Riley.
I think we just went at it from different angles? I've roleplayed Dawn for a while, I guess it rubbed off on me.
I think Giles' comments in IOHIFY (kind of a creepy episode anyway) are meant to be taken as wisdom: forgiveness isn't given because it's ( ... )
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That theme has been central to horror & sci-fi genres though, hasn't it? Which has it's origins all the way back to creation myths, then fairy tales and such. From Pinocchio to the Golem, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein to Philip K Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
I've read a good deal of meta and tend to forget where my information comes from.
Same here. It was easier back in the day before the internet. I had the library and real book/magazines/newpapers, only a limited number of sources in front of me. Now? Fucking endless. There is no way for the brain to keep track of where you get every little idea or piece of information, once it becomes encoded into your CPU so to speak.
But OTOH Spike's crush-antics take up quite a bit of space. I guess this is one of those things where a tally would help.
Like the ones did, "Whose Show is it Anyway?" http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/tag/ ( ... )
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