:) The Summers sisters FTW - it just makes me sad and stabby that people hate both characters; and/or that people focus on Dawn's relationship to Spike to the absolute exclusion of her relationship with Buffy. I mean, Buffy gave up her LIFE to save her sister (and the world). It's like you said, sisterly love trumps everything
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Re: 2/3, actually.red_satin_dollJuly 5 2013, 00:36:48 UTC
I just looked up Alice's website, which focuses on Child abuse. She was born in 1923 in Switzerland and is still alive http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php I think the book I referenced is "Thou Shalt Not Be Aware" revised 1998; I'd like to read more of her books though; they all focus on child abuse, and she's revised some of them in 1997, including her most famous "Drama of the gifted child". I suspect the copy I read was the original edition from 15 years previously. http://www.alice-miller.com/books_en.php?page=3
Wasn't male masturbation extremely frowned upon for a while, though? I think I read/heard things to that effect. True,- there are biblical injunctions against "spilling the seed" but it doesn't actually refer to masturbation itself but pulling out of intercourse before inseminating the woman and thus "wasting" it. But that was extended to masturbation later on. Ok,
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Re: 2/3, actually.red_satin_dollJuly 5 2013, 00:37:55 UTC
But definitely Joss has some regressive and screwed-up idea about women's sexuality. the spacefrak is the most knife-in-the-gut example of this I can imagine. But it's there all along. the original idea for the series was for the "Blond in the alley" in a horror movie to fight back against the monster, but WTTH also opens with a female monster, Darla, who is Buffy's first Dark mirror, and who kills (consumes) a boy.
Funnily enough: how Freudian. :[
Amirite? not funny in a ha-ha way, more like a sick joke.
Which, of course, raises questions about the nature of mental illness itself.Huh. That fic does sound like it raises interesting questions. I sort of like fics that deal with Buffy's mental issues if they can do so in a substantial way, and not just use it as an excuse for Spike to get to be the big manly hero and Buffy the damsel in distress - again. ( WHY is that the dynamic in so many fics?) And Spike still being evil but he and Buffy falling in love? Is usually a "meh" for me, but I might be interested in glancing at it
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3/3 what is this post even becominglanoyeeJuly 3 2013, 17:45:29 UTC
Makes sense. And I love the way these images can serve as wordless metas, like one I saw that compares Willow killing the deer in Bargaining with Tara's death, which - WOW. A picture really is worth a thousand words. (And now when I try to find the link in my bookmarks of course I can't.)
That's true! A really good photo- or gifset with well-chosen images can be quite powerful in its own right. I saw one ages ago that compared the morning-afters in Innocence and Wrecked and two other similarly parallel scenes, I think. It really highlighted for me how much Buffy was dealing out the pain that was once dealt to her in her relationship with Spike.
Re: 3/3 what is this post even becomingred_satin_dollJuly 3 2013, 18:08:45 UTC
I've had in mind for quite some time to compare Surprise/ GD with Smashed and Chosen, because those relationships run in opposite trajectories and the physical match between Buffy beneath Angel as he feeds on her and Spike beneath Buffy as she "takes her pleasure" - which is both nifty 'cause I love me some S7 Buffy&Spike BUT
- there's the old punishment of female sexuality again; a woman must be tamed, domesticated (to the love and service of a man) or die. And sometimes she is tamed but dies anyway (Satine in Moulin Rouge for ex.) Buffy becomes "Virgin" again in a spiritual sense. Willow/Tara also runs in an opposite trajectory and Tara dies after she fully voices her sexual desires without timidity, when she becomes a more confident woman.
And why isn't all of fandom squeeing over the resemblances between the hands imagery in Hush and Chosen, and the FtB in both NMR & Chosen? (Aside from the fact that it's a cop-out - which is actually something else they share in common.)
It really highlighted for me how much Buffy was
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Re: 3/3 what is this post even becominglanoyeeJuly 3 2013, 18:43:46 UTC
I've had in mind for quite some time to compare Surprise/ GD with Smashed and Chosen, because those relationships run in opposite trajectories and the physical match between Buffy beneath Angel as he feeds on her and Spike beneath Buffy as she "takes her pleasure"
Ohh, yes! Definitely. Also -- I was gonna say that the person beneath offers themselves in both cases, but that is more the case for Spike in the alley scene in DT, which is not sexual in nature.
there's the old punishment of female sexuality again; a woman must be tamed, domesticated (to the love and service of a man) or die. And sometimes she is tamed but dies anyway (Satine in Moulin Rouge for ex.) Buffy becomes "Virgin" again in a spiritual sense.It is so gross. :( Though, I wonder if it can't also be said that Spike is "tamed" in this case as well? One thing that is so fascinating about Buffy and Spike is how both of them take both "masculine" and "feminine" roles at different points in the relationship
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Re: 3/3 what is this post even becomingred_satin_dollJuly 5 2013, 20:37:01 UTC
I was gonna say that the person beneath offers themselves in both cases, but that is more the case for Spike in the alley scene in DT, which is not sexual in nature.
THe alley scene in DT is not overtly sexual in nature but it's tied into the darkness and perversity of the relationship.
Though, I wonder if it can't also be said that Spike is "tamed" in this case as well? One thing that is so fascinating about Buffy and Spike is how both of them take both "masculine" and "feminine" roles at different points in the relationship.Interesting. I think some fans already see him as "pussywhipped" by his lovers (Dru and Buffy) although that ignores the way in which he is also controlling in the relationships; compared to Angelus he is "tamed" by his lovers, then "tamed" by the chip but only so far; I love Buffy's statement "It's like having him in a muzzle." Such a difference from her view in S4-6. So there's a "taming" that goes on with Buffy and Spike aside from the chip, but there's also a sense of the opposite, of release back into a
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Re: 3/3 what is this post even becomingred_satin_dollJuly 5 2013, 20:53:13 UTC
just be glad you're not Spike, honey
Oh yeah and it's galling because Spike is NOT in a relationship with her at the time, it's all fantasy on his part and delusion on Riley's part. Men *pfft*
MOULIN ROUGE ASIDE CHRISTIAN IS A DICK. 8( Seriously, a few years ago I rewatched the movie after a long time and at first I was like "d'awww what a cutie", but then I began to see how extremely preoccupied he is with his jealousy to the extent of not even noticing that Satine is coughing a lot. He never asks if she's okay and doesn't care so much about her as to what she is to him. And of course, she's the one in the wrong for having to fulfill a promise to her employer. Guhhhh.
... it's kind of similar to the Buffy/Riley situation in a way, isn't it.
And of course, she's the one in the wrong for having to fulfill a promise to her employer. Guhhhh.THIS. Years ago a friend and I collaborated on a MR fanfic that starts at the point of the scene: "I don't want you to sleep with him" and goes AU from that. Unfortunately it's not only WIP but it's - longish and rather bad, and problematic in it's own right. (re: the evil homosexual aka the Duke.) I'm embarrassed now that I put so much time into the thing. But srsly - I don't want you to sleep with him? What about "Do you want to sleep with him?" What about her needs? Seriously, "I'll write a song!" has got to be the dumbest solution ever
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Reply
http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php I think the book I referenced is "Thou Shalt Not Be Aware" revised 1998; I'd like to read more of her books though; they all focus on child abuse, and she's revised some of them in 1997, including her most famous "Drama of the gifted child". I suspect the copy I read was the original edition from 15 years previously.
http://www.alice-miller.com/books_en.php?page=3
Wasn't male masturbation extremely frowned upon for a while, though? I think I read/heard things to that effect. True,- there are biblical injunctions against "spilling the seed" but it doesn't actually refer to masturbation itself but pulling out of intercourse before inseminating the woman and thus "wasting" it. But that was extended to masturbation later on. Ok, ( ... )
Reply
Funnily enough: how Freudian. :[
Amirite? not funny in a ha-ha way, more like a sick joke.
Which, of course, raises questions about the nature of mental illness itself.Huh. That fic does sound like it raises interesting questions. I sort of like fics that deal with Buffy's mental issues if they can do so in a substantial way, and not just use it as an excuse for Spike to get to be the big manly hero and Buffy the damsel in distress - again. ( WHY is that the dynamic in so many fics?) And Spike still being evil but he and Buffy falling in love? Is usually a "meh" for me, but I might be interested in glancing at it ( ... )
Reply
That's true! A really good photo- or gifset with well-chosen images can be quite powerful in its own right. I saw one ages ago that compared the morning-afters in Innocence and Wrecked and two other similarly parallel scenes, I think. It really highlighted for me how much Buffy was dealing out the pain that was once dealt to her in her relationship with Spike.
Reply
- there's the old punishment of female sexuality again; a woman must be tamed, domesticated (to the love and service of a man) or die. And sometimes she is tamed but dies anyway (Satine in Moulin Rouge for ex.) Buffy becomes "Virgin" again in a spiritual sense. Willow/Tara also runs in an opposite trajectory and Tara dies after she fully voices her sexual desires without timidity, when she becomes a more confident woman.
And why isn't all of fandom squeeing over the resemblances between the hands imagery in Hush and Chosen, and the FtB in both NMR & Chosen? (Aside from the fact that it's a cop-out - which is actually something else they share in common.)
It really highlighted for me how much Buffy was ( ... )
Reply
Ohh, yes! Definitely. Also -- I was gonna say that the person beneath offers themselves in both cases, but that is more the case for Spike in the alley scene in DT, which is not sexual in nature.
there's the old punishment of female sexuality again; a woman must be tamed, domesticated (to the love and service of a man) or die. And sometimes she is tamed but dies anyway (Satine in Moulin Rouge for ex.) Buffy becomes "Virgin" again in a spiritual sense.It is so gross. :( Though, I wonder if it can't also be said that Spike is "tamed" in this case as well? One thing that is so fascinating about Buffy and Spike is how both of them take both "masculine" and "feminine" roles at different points in the relationship ( ... )
Reply
THe alley scene in DT is not overtly sexual in nature but it's tied into the darkness and perversity of the relationship.
Though, I wonder if it can't also be said that Spike is "tamed" in this case as well? One thing that is so fascinating about Buffy and Spike is how both of them take both "masculine" and "feminine" roles at different points in the relationship.Interesting. I think some fans already see him as "pussywhipped" by his lovers (Dru and Buffy) although that ignores the way in which he is also controlling in the relationships; compared to Angelus he is "tamed" by his lovers, then "tamed" by the chip but only so far; I love Buffy's statement "It's like having him in a muzzle." Such a difference from her view in S4-6. So there's a "taming" that goes on with Buffy and Spike aside from the chip, but there's also a sense of the opposite, of release back into a ( ... )
Reply
Oh yeah and it's galling because Spike is NOT in a relationship with her at the time, it's all fantasy on his part and delusion on Riley's part. Men *pfft*
Reply
... it's kind of similar to the Buffy/Riley situation in a way, isn't it.
Reply
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