I just read a post in which a Thelemite made the statement of "We are not equal." It was used in the context that some people are better than others
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We may not all be equal in abilities, but we are all equal in our experiences of the Universe and the essence of our lives. To exalt oneself in terms of abilities that are "superior" to others is to:
1. exhibit a supreme degree of conceit.
2. ignore those traits that may be "inferior" to others ( and thus ignoring parts of oneself).
I'd pity such a person. . .but that would be the "vice of kings", wouldn't it? ;)
As a Thelemite, eventually one has to be liberated from love and will. No system is the correct one but all laws are reasoned by men who wish to exert their influences on the world and all claim that their word is superior of the past. It seems to be the trap of any that associate a religious chain around themselves and others.
***As a Thelemite, eventually one has to be liberated from love and will.***
Funny you mention that. I was reading "Do what thou wilt" and Crowley made a similar comment. I am paraphrasing, but when he was attempting to become 10=1 he came to the realization that even Thelema, itself was limit, because as you said, we have to become liberated even from love and will at some point.
I guess maybe Thelema is a path and key to the liberation from that.
Thelema is what you make out of it and that is usually what you'll get from it. I've noticed too many Thelemites try to be like Crowley instead of focusing on their own development and progress through the Great Work of their will.
This is an interesting set of writings. I suggest you take the time to read them when you get a chance. Here is an excerpt:
We should recognize the fact that the vast majority of human beings have no ambition in life beyond mere ease and animal happiness. We should allow these people to fulfil their destinies without interference. We should give every opportunity to the ambitious, and thereby establish a class of morally and intellectually superior men and women. We should have no compunction in utilizing the natural qualities of the bulk of mankind. We do not insist on trying to train sheep to hunt foxes or lecture on history; we look after their physical well being, and enjoy their wool and mutton. I this way we shall have a contented class of slaves who will accept the conditions of existence as they really are, and enjoy life with the quiet wisdom of cattle. It is our duty to see to it that this class of people lack for nothing. The patriarchal system is better for all classes than any other; the objections to it come from the
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I am not sure. I have been reading "Do what thou wilt" and he gives differing views. At times he seems gives the immpression of being a bigot, then at times he does not. I do not think her was personally a bigot, but due to his social class, he behaed as was the tradition. He felt we were equal in magick but not socially. Mixing of planes he called it.
****One last question, can you please show me a scientific source where it states all stars are equal? My observations are that some stars are brighter then others; some older; some younger; some go nova, others shine bright; some shine white, others blue or red. Is your experience of the night sky different?******
Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.
What evidence do you show to support this position? AC saw magick as what one person does, not some state that people are.
Magick is the art of causing change in existing phenomena. This definition includes raising the dead, bewitching cattle, making rain, acquiring goods, fascinating judges, and all the rest of the programme. Good: but it also includes every act soever? Yes; I meant it to do so. It is not possible to utter word or do deed without producing the exact effect proper and necessary thereto. Thus Magick is the Art of Life itself.
He also noted about magick:
Remember, also, that, unless you know what your true will is, you may be devoting the most laudable energies to destroying yourself. Remember that every word and deed is a witness to thought, that therefore your mind must be perfectly organized, its sole duty to interpret circumstances in terms of the Will so that speech and action may be rightly directed to express the Will appropriately to the occasion. Remember
( ... )
No we are not ALL equal and yes we judge each other and it is delusional to say otherwise. The Kings shall reign and the slaves shall serve! The reason we are not all equal is that this gives us something to move towards...a higher standard.
I forgot where I read this; however, it is a GREAT analogy. Think of each person as an acorn...very few men become trees, some are eaten, and MOST become fertilizer. No we are NOT ALL EQUAL....and if this makes me a bigot so be it. I would rather be a bigot and be honest than be delusional :)
But who is to say that others do not see you as less than equal and seeing you as needing to improve (that is an analogy and not directed towards you specifically of course)?
If such is the case, in keeping with your post, are you saying that there are some Thelemites that need to be spoon fed their opinions of Thelema by anothers or that some Thelemites need others to direct their particular orbit?
As far as delusional, "a false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness." While I do find you intelligenct, your intelligence alone is not enough to make my opinion delusional.
5. Yet, oh aspirant, let thy victories bring thee not Vanity, for with increase of Knowledge should come increase of Wisdom. He who knoweth little, thinketh he knoweth much
6. Be not hasty to condemn others; how knowest thou that in their place, thou couldst have resisted the temptation? And even were it so, why shouldst thou despise one who is weaker than thyself?
6. Be not hasty to condemn others; how knowest thou that in their place, thou couldst have resisted the temptation? And even were it so, why shouldst thou despise one who is weaker than thyself?
Does this passage not show there are those who are weak and those who are not? How does this reconcile with your assertion we are all equal?
But who is to say that others do not see you as less than equal and seeing you as needing to improve (that is an analogy and not directed towards you specifically of course)? [Fixed Typo
( ... )
****If such is the case, in keeping with your post, are you saying that there are some Thelemites that need to be spoon fed their opinions of Thelema by anothers
( ... )
But I can cite many passages from AC where he disparages "equality" and "humanitarianism." I don't think there is anything in the structure, or the Holy Books, of Thelema that encourages the idea that all are equal. In any event, the OTO and the AA are not set up like democracies. I don't think Crowley agreed with any of the fundamental principles of democracy, nor did he ever defend it. This means he rejects the ideas that democracy is based on. I think this is one of the reasons that Nietzsche is a Gnostic saint.
If the morals of Thelema are hard to accept, what is it that makes them hard? I think one element of the "hard part" comes when we have to reject the idea that everybody is equal. If Thelema was all about "equality" then the morals in it wouldn't be that hard to accept at all, would they? We are all used to believing that all are equal. I think this idea really comes from
( ... )
Inferiors and Superiorskeith418August 13 2004, 09:47:28 UTC
What I am speaking of is others that look down their noses at others and label others inferior to themselves.
Have you ever read the book reviews in The Equinox? I see AC doing this all the time.
None of the issues you raised as anything to do with the questions in my post. "Looking down" on people for one reason or another is something we do all the time. If you believe in "equality", then you will look down on those who do not, won't you? Should I treat people as my peers when they are not - or haven't proven themselves to be? What does that buy me? Where does AC say I should?
If we are all equal, and none of us is superior to anyone else, why aspire to anything at all?
In addition, you never answered any of the points in my post. Please read it again and let me know if you think I am making sense or not...
Re: Inferiors and SuperiorsaradiasimpsonAugust 13 2004, 10:43:14 UTC
As usual Keith....I always clap my hands to you. I have so much to learn and you are so wise. Again, thank you for being such a wonderful influence. You show immensely the standards Crowley himself created and I love the passion you express in your statements.
As far as how I feel....SUCCESS IS THY PROOF!
Question redbadger....do you feel you are equal to Crowley? I think not. That is why we are not equal and that is why he is called the Prophet.
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1. exhibit a supreme degree of conceit.
2. ignore those traits that may be "inferior" to others ( and thus ignoring parts of oneself).
I'd pity such a person. . .but that would be the "vice of kings", wouldn't it? ;)
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Thanks.
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Funny you mention that. I was reading "Do what thou wilt" and Crowley made a similar comment. I am paraphrasing, but when he was attempting to become 10=1 he came to the realization that even Thelema, itself was limit, because as you said, we have to become liberated even from love and will at some point.
I guess maybe Thelema is a path and key to the liberation from that.
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btw, when are you going to come up and visit us :)
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We should recognize the fact that the vast majority of human beings have no ambition in life beyond mere ease and animal happiness. We should allow these people to fulfil their destinies without interference. We should give every opportunity to the ambitious, and thereby establish a class of morally and intellectually superior men and women. We should have no compunction in utilizing the natural qualities of the bulk of mankind. We do not insist on trying to train sheep to hunt foxes or lecture on history; we look after their physical well being, and enjoy their wool and mutton. I this way we shall have a contented class of slaves who will accept the conditions of existence as they really are, and enjoy life with the quiet wisdom of cattle. It is our duty to see to it that this class of people lack for nothing. The patriarchal system is better for all classes than any other; the objections to it come from the ( ... )
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I am not sure. I have been reading "Do what thou wilt" and he gives differing views. At times he seems gives the immpression of being a bigot, then at times he does not. I do not think her was personally a bigot, but due to his social class, he behaed as was the tradition. He felt we were equal in magick but not socially. Mixing of planes he called it.
****One last question, can you please show me a scientific source where it states all stars are equal? My observations are that some stars are brighter then others; some older; some younger; some go nova, others shine bright; some shine white, others blue or red. Is your experience of the night sky different?******
Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.
Reply
What evidence do you show to support this position? AC saw magick as what one person does, not some state that people are.
Magick is the art of causing change in existing phenomena. This definition includes raising the dead, bewitching cattle, making rain, acquiring goods, fascinating judges, and all the rest of the programme. Good: but it also includes every act soever? Yes; I meant it to do so. It is not possible to utter word or do deed without producing the exact effect proper and necessary thereto. Thus Magick is the Art of Life itself.
He also noted about magick:
Remember, also, that, unless you know what your true will is, you may be devoting the most laudable energies to destroying yourself. Remember that every word and deed is a witness to thought, that therefore your mind must be perfectly organized, its sole duty to interpret circumstances in terms of the Will so that speech and action may be rightly directed to express the Will appropriately to the occasion. Remember ( ... )
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From his own writings of course. He called it mixing of planes. Read "Do what thou wilt."
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I forgot where I read this; however, it is a GREAT analogy. Think of each person as an acorn...very few men become trees, some are eaten, and MOST become fertilizer. No we are NOT ALL EQUAL....and if this makes me a bigot so be it. I would rather be a bigot and be honest than be delusional :)
Reply
If such is the case, in keeping with your post, are you saying that there are some Thelemites that need to be spoon fed their opinions of Thelema by anothers or that some Thelemites need others to direct their particular orbit?
As far as delusional, "a false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness." While I do find you intelligenct, your intelligence alone is not enough to make my opinion delusional.
5. Yet, oh aspirant, let thy victories bring thee not Vanity, for with increase of Knowledge should come increase of Wisdom. He who knoweth little, thinketh he knoweth much
6. Be not hasty to condemn others; how knowest thou that in their place, thou couldst have resisted the temptation? And even were it so, why shouldst thou despise one who is weaker than thyself?
Reply
Does this passage not show there are those who are weak and those who are not? How does this reconcile with your assertion we are all equal?
But who is to say that others do not see you as less than equal and seeing you as needing to improve (that is an analogy and not directed towards you specifically of course)? [Fixed Typo ( ... )
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Crowley wrote a Chapter of Magick Without Tears, called "Morals of AL-Hard to Accept, and Why nevertheless we Must Concur." Have you read it?
If the morals of Thelema are hard to accept, what is it that makes them hard? I think one element of the "hard part" comes when we have to reject the idea that everybody is equal. If Thelema was all about "equality" then the morals in it wouldn't be that hard to accept at all, would they? We are all used to believing that all are equal. I think this idea really comes from ( ... )
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Have you ever read the book reviews in The Equinox? I see AC doing this all the time.
None of the issues you raised as anything to do with the questions in my post. "Looking down" on people for one reason or another is something we do all the time. If you believe in "equality", then you will look down on those who do not, won't you? Should I treat people as my peers when they are not - or haven't proven themselves to be? What does that buy me? Where does AC say I should?
If we are all equal, and none of us is superior to anyone else, why aspire to anything at all?
In addition, you never answered any of the points in my post. Please read it again and let me know if you think I am making sense or not...
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As far as how I feel....SUCCESS IS THY PROOF!
Question redbadger....do you feel you are equal to Crowley? I think not. That is why we are not equal and that is why he is called the Prophet.
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