(I was going to disable comments here, just because I don't crave a discussion, merely my own statement, but then I changed my mind. Not so sure there is much to say though
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While everything you say is not only true but very sane and intelligent, there is still the sociological aspect of power left out of the equation in mots of these types of "blaming" discussions
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I thought you might think back to our previous discussion. I'll say what I said to another commenter in one of those threads in that post: There is neither any "true" socialism nor any "true" capitalism in the democratic world (and making them un-democratic will make them not count, in my book). The best thing that could happen was the slow advent of the mixed systems in all their many incarnations. What I referred to was the value of the legacy, comparing capitalism and socialism, and how it has transformed but is still present. I think it is somewhat equal in scope and value and you thought not and also think there is true capitalism (unlike all libertarians I know of). This is where we disagree. From my POW, most people cannot even begin to fathom what a dismal society this would be if socialism or something similar never happened at all
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I do understand your need to talk about it without having to discuss it. sometimes you need to just express your feelings about things like this. It is a sad event.
Yes, sad and horrible. You wouldn't believe how fast right wing parties both in Europe as well as in the US started to blame Islamic groups, way before any evidence was gathered.
I was hoping to see your perspective. I do think he is mentally ill, but not so disturbed like the Tuscon shooter, so that he is not answerable for his actions. The blame game will occur inevitably though. The Progress Party in Norway has been saying irresponsible and poisonous things for years - they are Norway's fleabaggers. They could even become the ruling party eventually, although the events of Friday will delay that for quite a while, I think. But in the short run they will get some very severe criticism for pushing the limits of debate to such a degree that created an environment where someone like Breivik thought he was justified in killing as many "Marxists" as possible
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I think he is both political and highly answerable for his actions, as they were not clinical. But of course he wasn't a normal citizen, no terrorist is. There is always something abnormal going on in those minds, and after reading extensively on his thoughts (he thinks his actions are repulsive but necessary), the patterns are very standard textbook terrorist/fanatic-activist.
Thank you SO much for filling me in on some things here, I was hoping that you'd add your extensive knowledge of various groups in a comment. I knew some of this (and yes, Denmark is way far gone, but I'm still hoping for them), but far from all.
And we seem to agree. These are the signs of our times. The Right has since long tipped the power balance quite heavily, and now we see some of the effects. The problem is, no one wants to even admit any form of connection or responsibility.
I thought it was interesting that all of the news outlets were backpedaling frantically after jumping to Middle Eastern conclusions. It's definitely a political act--how can it be interpreted otherwise? It wasn't a random shopping mall shooting.
This is such a sad and horrifying event. I've been thinking about it all day, and I was thinking of you as well.
Interesting to hear about the Nazi thing--what I read on the BBC earlier today was kind of hinting around that, but was confusing, as they weren't actually linking the two things just kind of....intimating that he might be a Nazi
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You know, I had some friends in the immediate area, and before I could learn more I almost flipped my shit over here. I can just imagine how traumatizing it must have been for people in Norway. Thanks to Faceboob (you won't hear me saying that very often), I learned fairly quickly that both groups of friends were okay.
I heard the bestest Twitter the other day from an American guy, I can't quote him properly, but the gist of it went like this: "After realizing that the terrorist/murderer was more Tea Party than Muslim, coverage of the tragedy declined dramatically in the US".
And that LJ discussion about responsibility started exactly about the matter you refer to. Many in that corner, particularly libertarians actually, think that nothing that someone else does bears any linkage to anything else said or done by someone else on their side. It's pure "individualism" baby. The best alibi ever, even denying the slightest possibility of any group thinking effects.
Even if it is the work of a madman, as soon as it is politically motivated, and/or directed at a government or a society, it is terrorrism. Doesn't matter if it's right or left, christian or muslim, perpetrators.
An "ordinary" madman wouldn't have written a 1500 page manifest claiming to be a knights templar, planned for nine years and then hit two such distinct but separate targets. An "ordinary" madman would try to kill as many people as possible, making no distinction between his victims, by say, drive his car into a crowd or start shooting in a shopping mall or something similar.
No, this is terrorrism. Now we just hope he was alone, and not organized.
My thoughts exactly! Didn't he even pose in a Freemason uniform. I know he quoted John Stewart Mill extensively. And this is something the US coverage is VERY reluctant to cover, they all want him to belong to some vaguely "nazi-like" group.
Of course I am not saying poor old dead Mill is to blame for any of this, but COME ON, his political affiliation is by far more Tea Party than either Muslim or Nazi.
first the perp wasn't a muslim...now he's not a neo-nazi? No wonder the US is moving on to more compelling things, like Amy Winehouse's self-destruction...the story from Norway is just too complex!
Not a neo-nazi? Well... The devil is in the semantics they say. He hates communists and muslims and claims to be a christian warrior, not unlike the knights templar of the crusades.
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Thank you SO much for filling me in on some things here, I was hoping that you'd add your extensive knowledge of various groups in a comment. I knew some of this (and yes, Denmark is way far gone, but I'm still hoping for them), but far from all.
And we seem to agree. These are the signs of our times. The Right has since long tipped the power balance quite heavily, and now we see some of the effects. The problem is, no one wants to even admit any form of connection or responsibility.
Reply
This is such a sad and horrifying event. I've been thinking about it all day, and I was thinking of you as well.
Interesting to hear about the Nazi thing--what I read on the BBC earlier today was kind of hinting around that, but was confusing, as they weren't actually linking the two things just kind of....intimating that he might be a Nazi ( ... )
Reply
I heard the bestest Twitter the other day from an American guy, I can't quote him properly, but the gist of it went like this: "After realizing that the terrorist/murderer was more Tea Party than Muslim, coverage of the tragedy declined dramatically in the US".
And that LJ discussion about responsibility started exactly about the matter you refer to. Many in that corner, particularly libertarians actually, think that nothing that someone else does bears any linkage to anything else said or done by someone else on their side. It's pure "individualism" baby. The best alibi ever, even denying the slightest possibility of any group thinking effects.
Reply
An "ordinary" madman wouldn't have written a 1500 page manifest claiming to be a knights templar, planned for nine years and then hit two such distinct but separate targets. An "ordinary" madman would try to kill as many people as possible, making no distinction between his victims, by say, drive his car into a crowd or start shooting in a shopping mall or something similar.
No, this is terrorrism. Now we just hope he was alone, and not organized.
Reply
Of course I am not saying poor old dead Mill is to blame for any of this, but COME ON, his political affiliation is by far more Tea Party than either Muslim or Nazi.
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I think that's enough to qualify...
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