When stories disappear - back again

[skaredykat]

I've posted about this before, but thanks to debris_k calling it out, the topic has been brought to the forefront of my mind again.

Someone wants to set up a community specifically for the sharing of deleted stories. Okay, it says "There would be rules. Rules against post[ing] a fic where you KNOW[*see footnote] the author doesn't want it posted" -- but

Comments

[jenna_marianne]

Thanks for the summary and links roundup; I saw the original post by vickyblueeyez linked in some ficfinding comms and metafandom, but it's nice to have some backstory. I agree with you on every point.

Ugh, it's interesting that vickyblueeyes keeps asking the same question over and over again, as if asking again will get the response she actually wants or that it will shift the consensus.

From her post, she summarizes some of the problems people have on this issue, but then goes ignores them: "There were a lot of heated debates...over the issue. Many opinions were posted about permissions, lack of disclaimers, authors not saying their wishes, what if you can't contact the author, legal issues, why the fic was deleted, why the journal was deleted and so on. I have an idea and I want to see what people think."

[skaredykat]

Thanks for your comment, and omg yes! That's exactly what it feels like: "If I just keep repeating the same thing, surely the outcome's going to completely shift to the one I want really soon?" Oh boy... I don't think that's called the scientific method? *sighs again*

[jenna_marianne]

You've been metafandomed! :D

[jenna_marianne]

Oh god, *her*?! Granted I have only run into her in one other place, but apparently she brings her socially-tone-deaf with her everywhere.

(She will grow up. She will grow up. Honest.)

[danceswithgary]

The entitled attitudes I am seeing in the comments at the original post are starting to piss me off. The argument that a published author can't go out and grab back all of the copies of a work that they sold is ignoring one important point - the fanworks weren't for sale (I'm not including fanworks offered for charities) and no money was accepted for them. The creators did not give up their rights simply because they were fanworks posted for free.

[skaredykat]

Unthrilled about them right along with you... Again, so agree with you! (I ramble on at more length about my possibly idiosyncratic feeling that by-their-nature-unpaid authors of fanfic should get to retain more rights over the distribution of their works than continuing-to-cash-royalty-check pro authors in that earlier post.)

Argh, I mean, can we as readers (um, that'd be me) please do whatever we can that will avoid making it less enjoyable for fic writers to post their stories? So that they might be more inclined to either write and post more (yay!) or be willing to allow reasonably discreet one-to-one sharing? And please not imply to them that if they ever take down works those stories and quite possibly the fannish identity connected to them may no longer be treated with care/fandom-common courtesy?

Seen on metafandom

[danceswithgary]

The entitled attitudes I am seeing in the comments at the original post are starting to piss me off. The argument that a published author can't go out and grab back all of the copies of a work that they sold is ignoring one important point - the fanworks weren't for sale (I'm not including fanworks offered for charities) and no money was accepted for them. The creators did not give up their rights simply because they were fanworks posted for free.

Uh, guys, this line of thinking is undermining that argument for fans using original copyrighted and trademarked material as the basis for fanworks because they are "transformative". It's as inconsistent as the TWC requiring the author to hand over the copyright (without restrictions) to them for any material they deem to publish.

Now there is the issue of a legal purchaser of a copy of a professional work selling that copy second-hand (perfectly legal and acceptable for tangible property like books, CDs, records, etc.) and how does that practice apply to works in a digital format...

[wingslapped]

I agree so much. I think that an author deleting a fic or their account/website should be an assumed "No, don't share this." unless they say otherwise.

[skaredykat]

When they've taken the step of actively deleting their journal or personal website without moving their fic to an archive, then golly yes, that would seem logical to assume, wouldn't it? :)

[melaniedavidson]

This. Some people delete their fic because they don't want people to find it... or, at least, specific people. What if you ended up sharing it with someone they were specifically trying to hide it from?

[skaredykat]

Right. I'd feel very bad about that, and imagine others would too.

I have my own "I know it's token but it makes me feel a little better" policy about who I'll send even authorized-to-be-shared fic to (based on, oh dear, my perception of their fannishness; so not-objective, but again even if far from foolproof, makes me feel like I'm trying at least a little to reduce that risk) in part because of writers saying there were certain people they'd really prefer didn't get copies of their fic.

And for the moment, the main ficsharing activity (that I've been exposed to) is at storyfinding comms that it'd still -- at least currently -- take a non-fannish person some effort to discover.

Normally I'm all for centrally located googlable resources, but when it comes to things that fans -- in a culture that seemed to widely respect pseudonymity when they entered it -- chose to remove becoming more easily findable even to non-fannish people and thus quite possibly exacerbating privacy concerns, no. Please just let's not make it more

[daf9]

Metafandom posts often raise my blood pressure but this one I agree with 100%. The way I look at it, the fics aren't been given, they're being lent. And if and when the author wants them back, that should be their choice and their right.

[skaredykat]

Thanks. :) I'd still really prefer it if fic writers didn't (have to) ever take their stories offline. But if they do for any reason, let's err on the side of courtesy (and possibly helping protect their privacy if that's the concern that led them to pull fic) and not make it publicly obvious that their stories are going to be visibly shared anyway.

[soukup]

So, vickyblueeyes has screened my comment as spam. Regardless, I'd like to thank you very much for being a voice of reason in this discussion; your post (linked in metafandom) was what made me aware that this was going on. Here is the comment you inspired (it could have easily gone here, and is mostly about what "know" means, as you discuss above

[skaredykat]

Thanks for commenting here, and sorry it's not showing up over at vickyblueeyez post too! (Though it may be that LJ's "exciting" new mark/screen-anything-from-non-friends-with-links-in-it-as-spam-by-default spamfighting "feature" is hiding more comments there than vickyblueeyez is aware of, given that she said she turned her own comment-notification for that post off?)

I am very pro archiving&orphaning at the AO3. But even that option may not feel right to an author. And in that case...

Yes, there are often ways for dedicated readers to still track down or obtain copies of writers' deleted fic. But when a writer has taken the step of actively removing their fic, I have this weird notion that it would be more courteous or responsible to support keeping it a little difficult/requiring more effort to find those traces than to, um, boldly go making it quite a lot easier and more public to find those stories.

*rides tiny hobbyhorse in little circles, off into the sunset* ;)

[jedinic]

(Also here via MF.)

Just wanted to offer an alternate POV on 'deleted fic'. Someone leaves fandom & they delete their journal/website. With it go the stories. They don't necessarily care if the stories are out there or not, but they honestly can't be bothered uploading the stories anonymously/elsewhere.

It's much easier to delete than restore.

I know that for myself, I stopped paying for webspace and the site was deleted. I honestly don't care if the fic's out there or not but since it's old, I'm too lazy to restore it.

[azurelunatic]

(also also here via metafandom)

If I deleted or privatized my journal, it would probably be for personal-life stuff, rather than fannish reasons, and unless the personal-life stuff touched on fannish stuff, it would probably be too much trouble to specifically sort out the fannish/innocuous stuff and leave it accessible. The LJ/DW mass privacy edit tool doesn't have that sort of fine-grained control, and I am far more likely to trust the onsite tool rather than a security-editing client.

I've run into locked-links a few times where people clearly did a mass-locking run, and I've occasionally gone to their single public entry and left the link and let them know that I was coming back to read this and very politely asked if they would be comfortable unlocking or sending a copy, and the worst response I've had so far is a lack of response, occasionally an unlocked entry.