to presentient's initial comment
i'm actually very appreciative of what you have to say here, because it (along with what jellyfish78 had to say) puts things in a perspective that i was previously unaware of.
(continued in my next post [THIS ONE] due to longevity... along with my desire that my views on the topic are known to the readers who may not be following this particular thread)
both you and jellyfish78 CLAIM (assumedly along with alice13) that i told each of you that i had hired a 17-year-old, pregnant prostitute. however, my recollection of what happened is that i hired an 18-year-old pregnant prostitute. according to my memory, she didn't look pregnant at all. i didn't check her ID, so i was basically trusting that she told me her correct age. i don't deny the fact she was a prostitute and that i hired her. i have issues in that people believe that i had knowingly hired a 17-year-old sex worker, and seemingly have no problem in telling others that which they believe to be true... that which i believe to be false.
but for all we know, Buddha could've been lying to me about her age (regardless if it was 17 or 18... for all i know, she could've been 21, or 16 for that matter... i'm a bad judge of age), and/or her maternity. some guys are turned on by strange information like that, and maybe she thought i was one of them.
what this boils down to is: whose memory is closest to the truth? and whose memory might've changed over time?
i believe that, IF she had told me she was UNDER 18 (lying or not), that i absolutely would have remembered that "underage" aspect to this day, given its stigma in our culture (and the stigma in my own mind). granted, this event happened no less than eleven years ago, when i was 23. and i am definitely not known for having a memory of an elephant. so i could very well be wrong in believing that she claimed to have aged 18 years. but i absolutely don't remember being creeped out by her age at all (as i believe i would have, had she claimed to have been a minor). i do remember being creeped out by her claim of being pregnant (which i do still remember).
in fact, i don't remember telling you or jellyfish78 about any of this episode in my life. in fact, moreso, i challenge you to define my "workplace". even i can't pinpoint that location.
now, let's say (for sake of argument), that i'm right... that Buddha claimed to have been an age of majority. how would one explain that there exists no less than 3 accounts claiming that i had told them otherwise? three against one... what are the odds that the one is right and the three are wrong? well, one might refer to the scientific research done by Dr. Elizabeth Loftus and others that strongly suggests that "false" memories are easily adopted as "true" memories through the power of mere suggestion.* through this perspective, it's entirely possible that one or more of the three misunderstood what i had told them and likely convinced others that they heard me say that Buddha was 17, just by talking about it amongst themselves. that is to say, during conversation, if one's recollection seems to be more "certain" than another's, the other's memory is likely to be persuaded to recollect the same as the memory of the stronger conviction, with just as much certainty, with just as much conviction. in their (new) memory, they can recollect my mouth and my voice forming the word "seventeen" with just as much certainty as if i had actually said it, even IF i truly said "eighteen".
(along those same lines, it's entirely possible that MY memory of her age was persuaded into believing her to have been an adult at the time when she might not have been... although i can't begin to suspect where those persuasions would've come from)
of course, i don't know whether or not you've HAD conversations with others of this ilk, enough to persuade you to believe you heard me say something i believe to be false, but i find it extremely odd that (to my knowledge) this "under-18" belief is only amongst 3 people whom i no longer have contact with (outside this recent LJ drama), all 3 of whom, in my opinion, enjoy (some of whom almost THRIVE upon) gossip, and therefore have a LOT of opportunities to be persuaded by the power of suggestion.
"Are you SURE he said 18? Oh, come on! Without a doubt, he told me 17!"
"hmmm... well, maybe he did say 17. he seemed to have mentioned she was too young for him."
viola! a new memory! it's now fixated in your mind that the conversation that we had included me telling you she was 17.
at first, i thought only alice13 was saying it, so i (naturally?) thought that it was just a smear campaign by one person, based on vengeance soon after we had our falling out. that's why i recently accused her of lying... lying about what i still believe to be the facts of the situation, and ultimately lying about me, my demeanour and my perception of others (women, in particular). when jellyfish78 commented to confirm what i thought to be a lie, i was all but happy to be dismissive of HER claim, being that i have seen how two-faced she can be (claiming to my face that there was no ill-will towards me when i asked her about the negative vibe i got from her during thebee76's wedding), fully negating any trust i may have once had in her OR her claims (granted, i asked about this vibe at her workplace... my mistake... and as her customer, she probably felt obligated to put on that "all-is-well" charade. still, i found it far less than genuine from someone i thought of as a friend, albeit distant). but with YOU in the mix, i can only conclude that ALL THREE of you (possibly more) truly believe this "under-18" notion. and it can't possibly be a campaign to spread a lie when so many of you believe it to be true.
what i'm ultimately saying is... if my memory of what Buddha told me is less than accurate, if she REALLY claimed to have been 17, i owe alice13, jellyfish78 and you a big, HUGE apology for me to have pronounced this aspect of Buddha to be false. with that said though, i still don't believe it to be true.
the problem is that the FACT of the matter eludes all of us. she is long gone. the name i knew her by was her CB handle way back in 1997. her true DOB can't be verified by any of us. i'm not even sure if i would recognize her in a lineup.
but, regardless of who's right and who's wrong in regards to her age... beyond the argument of who remembers more or less accurately of what really happened...
i was a dick for hiring her services... no question about it. and i was EXTREMELY naïve in talking so openly about this to others, having no regard for how sensitive such information would be to my audience, nor the regard for how the information would ultimately be sensitive to me. when i told people this information, i didn't give a rat's ass what people thought, and that was a complete mistake. i ended up BEING the rat's ass. i'm sorry i burdened you and them with that info, and i'm sorry also because that info, no matter how accurate, later burdened me (a lesson to be sure). but i cannot change the past, and i have little say in what happens now. what's done is done, and what is, is. but truly, truly i say unto you, i am not proud of one bit of the subject at hand.
if there is ANYthing in my defence, it's this: it was NO LESS than 11 years ago. i was a 23-year-old "man" with a LOT of growing up to do. it can be said (probably with much accuracy) that at that point in my life and a few years afterward, that i had problems. i had issues. i was screwed in the head especially in regards to sex and how i view women individually and as a whole. some may say that i continue to be "that guy"... that i haven't grown a single wit in this regard. to that, i say "balderdash". i have grown. i have learned. i'm not sure i've completely matured to the point that i need to, but i am absolutely NOT the person i was 11 years ago, or 5 years ago, or 2 years ago. FGS, i am not the person i was yesterday. so to talk to others about me fucking an underaged and pregnant hooker as if it's part of who i am now... a 34-year-old man who ___________ (fill in the blank as you wish)...?! it really skews who i REALLY am now, and places me at an unfair disadvantage among those who'll listen to, and take to heart, the stories you and others may tell of my yore. there's an absolute reason why i don't tell such stories of my past anymore: i am ashamed of them, because they do NOT reflect how i see myself now.
i'm saddened that these tales are still being told, because if for nothing else, when someone hears you or anyone else tell them that i hired a 17-year-old pregnant prostitute, i guarantee you they won't be thinking of the 23-year-old Michael that i was at the time. they'll be imagining the Michael they currently know, aged 34, getting frisky with a 17-year-old who's swelled... about to give labour... which is beyond sick and wrong on so many levels.
that is not to say that i won't take blame for the consequences of my actions. the rejection of you, jellyfish78, alice13, and others... by all means, what i did was awful and wrong... and your negativity towards me is very likely justified (even though i may argue about the validity of the details). i just don't think "that guy" you talk about is indicative of who i am today (honestly, what have you learned about me and my growth in the past two years?). that's why i have a problem with people who spread this shit around, regardless of how i ONCE felt about being totally open and honest.
for your own individual reasons, some of you reading this have decided that i am less than worthy of your trust and love. i'm here to say that i won't argue with any of it. you have every reason to think i'm scum, IF you think that. you can ridicule, dispise and hate me to your hearts' desire, and i will think you are absolutely justified, based on what you think you know (because, i truly understand that to you, it's what you KNOW you know). i blew it, and i'm sorry i disappointed you. i have come to peace with your negativity, and i forgive you. i can only say "sorry" so much before it becomes reduntant and loses its meaning.
please, for your OWN sake, afford yourself the possibility of the peace i've come to know. in other words, FGS, don't blow an artery on my account. cuz i ain't worth it... no matter how much you revile me, how much you once trusted and cared for me.
just let it go. what's done is done.
* - i highly recommend listening to this episode that tackles the topic of memory (and forgetting) in a scientific way, especially if you think i'm full of shit as to what YOU may, or may not, remember... http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2007/06/08
(continued in my next post [THIS ONE] due to longevity... along with my desire that my views on the topic are known to the readers who may not be following this particular thread)
both you and jellyfish78 CLAIM (assumedly along with alice13) that i told each of you that i had hired a 17-year-old, pregnant prostitute. however, my recollection of what happened is that i hired an 18-year-old pregnant prostitute. according to my memory, she didn't look pregnant at all. i didn't check her ID, so i was basically trusting that she told me her correct age. i don't deny the fact she was a prostitute and that i hired her. i have issues in that people believe that i had knowingly hired a 17-year-old sex worker, and seemingly have no problem in telling others that which they believe to be true... that which i believe to be false.
but for all we know, Buddha could've been lying to me about her age (regardless if it was 17 or 18... for all i know, she could've been 21, or 16 for that matter... i'm a bad judge of age), and/or her maternity. some guys are turned on by strange information like that, and maybe she thought i was one of them.
what this boils down to is: whose memory is closest to the truth? and whose memory might've changed over time?
i believe that, IF she had told me she was UNDER 18 (lying or not), that i absolutely would have remembered that "underage" aspect to this day, given its stigma in our culture (and the stigma in my own mind). granted, this event happened no less than eleven years ago, when i was 23. and i am definitely not known for having a memory of an elephant. so i could very well be wrong in believing that she claimed to have aged 18 years. but i absolutely don't remember being creeped out by her age at all (as i believe i would have, had she claimed to have been a minor). i do remember being creeped out by her claim of being pregnant (which i do still remember).
in fact, i don't remember telling you or jellyfish78 about any of this episode in my life. in fact, moreso, i challenge you to define my "workplace". even i can't pinpoint that location.
now, let's say (for sake of argument), that i'm right... that Buddha claimed to have been an age of majority. how would one explain that there exists no less than 3 accounts claiming that i had told them otherwise? three against one... what are the odds that the one is right and the three are wrong? well, one might refer to the scientific research done by Dr. Elizabeth Loftus and others that strongly suggests that "false" memories are easily adopted as "true" memories through the power of mere suggestion.* through this perspective, it's entirely possible that one or more of the three misunderstood what i had told them and likely convinced others that they heard me say that Buddha was 17, just by talking about it amongst themselves. that is to say, during conversation, if one's recollection seems to be more "certain" than another's, the other's memory is likely to be persuaded to recollect the same as the memory of the stronger conviction, with just as much certainty, with just as much conviction. in their (new) memory, they can recollect my mouth and my voice forming the word "seventeen" with just as much certainty as if i had actually said it, even IF i truly said "eighteen".
(along those same lines, it's entirely possible that MY memory of her age was persuaded into believing her to have been an adult at the time when she might not have been... although i can't begin to suspect where those persuasions would've come from)
of course, i don't know whether or not you've HAD conversations with others of this ilk, enough to persuade you to believe you heard me say something i believe to be false, but i find it extremely odd that (to my knowledge) this "under-18" belief is only amongst 3 people whom i no longer have contact with (outside this recent LJ drama), all 3 of whom, in my opinion, enjoy (some of whom almost THRIVE upon) gossip, and therefore have a LOT of opportunities to be persuaded by the power of suggestion.
"Are you SURE he said 18? Oh, come on! Without a doubt, he told me 17!"
"hmmm... well, maybe he did say 17. he seemed to have mentioned she was too young for him."
viola! a new memory! it's now fixated in your mind that the conversation that we had included me telling you she was 17.
at first, i thought only alice13 was saying it, so i (naturally?) thought that it was just a smear campaign by one person, based on vengeance soon after we had our falling out. that's why i recently accused her of lying... lying about what i still believe to be the facts of the situation, and ultimately lying about me, my demeanour and my perception of others (women, in particular). when jellyfish78 commented to confirm what i thought to be a lie, i was all but happy to be dismissive of HER claim, being that i have seen how two-faced she can be (claiming to my face that there was no ill-will towards me when i asked her about the negative vibe i got from her during thebee76's wedding), fully negating any trust i may have once had in her OR her claims (granted, i asked about this vibe at her workplace... my mistake... and as her customer, she probably felt obligated to put on that "all-is-well" charade. still, i found it far less than genuine from someone i thought of as a friend, albeit distant). but with YOU in the mix, i can only conclude that ALL THREE of you (possibly more) truly believe this "under-18" notion. and it can't possibly be a campaign to spread a lie when so many of you believe it to be true.
what i'm ultimately saying is... if my memory of what Buddha told me is less than accurate, if she REALLY claimed to have been 17, i owe alice13, jellyfish78 and you a big, HUGE apology for me to have pronounced this aspect of Buddha to be false. with that said though, i still don't believe it to be true.
the problem is that the FACT of the matter eludes all of us. she is long gone. the name i knew her by was her CB handle way back in 1997. her true DOB can't be verified by any of us. i'm not even sure if i would recognize her in a lineup.
but, regardless of who's right and who's wrong in regards to her age... beyond the argument of who remembers more or less accurately of what really happened...
i was a dick for hiring her services... no question about it. and i was EXTREMELY naïve in talking so openly about this to others, having no regard for how sensitive such information would be to my audience, nor the regard for how the information would ultimately be sensitive to me. when i told people this information, i didn't give a rat's ass what people thought, and that was a complete mistake. i ended up BEING the rat's ass. i'm sorry i burdened you and them with that info, and i'm sorry also because that info, no matter how accurate, later burdened me (a lesson to be sure). but i cannot change the past, and i have little say in what happens now. what's done is done, and what is, is. but truly, truly i say unto you, i am not proud of one bit of the subject at hand.
if there is ANYthing in my defence, it's this: it was NO LESS than 11 years ago. i was a 23-year-old "man" with a LOT of growing up to do. it can be said (probably with much accuracy) that at that point in my life and a few years afterward, that i had problems. i had issues. i was screwed in the head especially in regards to sex and how i view women individually and as a whole. some may say that i continue to be "that guy"... that i haven't grown a single wit in this regard. to that, i say "balderdash". i have grown. i have learned. i'm not sure i've completely matured to the point that i need to, but i am absolutely NOT the person i was 11 years ago, or 5 years ago, or 2 years ago. FGS, i am not the person i was yesterday. so to talk to others about me fucking an underaged and pregnant hooker as if it's part of who i am now... a 34-year-old man who ___________ (fill in the blank as you wish)...?! it really skews who i REALLY am now, and places me at an unfair disadvantage among those who'll listen to, and take to heart, the stories you and others may tell of my yore. there's an absolute reason why i don't tell such stories of my past anymore: i am ashamed of them, because they do NOT reflect how i see myself now.
i'm saddened that these tales are still being told, because if for nothing else, when someone hears you or anyone else tell them that i hired a 17-year-old pregnant prostitute, i guarantee you they won't be thinking of the 23-year-old Michael that i was at the time. they'll be imagining the Michael they currently know, aged 34, getting frisky with a 17-year-old who's swelled... about to give labour... which is beyond sick and wrong on so many levels.
that is not to say that i won't take blame for the consequences of my actions. the rejection of you, jellyfish78, alice13, and others... by all means, what i did was awful and wrong... and your negativity towards me is very likely justified (even though i may argue about the validity of the details). i just don't think "that guy" you talk about is indicative of who i am today (honestly, what have you learned about me and my growth in the past two years?). that's why i have a problem with people who spread this shit around, regardless of how i ONCE felt about being totally open and honest.
for your own individual reasons, some of you reading this have decided that i am less than worthy of your trust and love. i'm here to say that i won't argue with any of it. you have every reason to think i'm scum, IF you think that. you can ridicule, dispise and hate me to your hearts' desire, and i will think you are absolutely justified, based on what you think you know (because, i truly understand that to you, it's what you KNOW you know). i blew it, and i'm sorry i disappointed you. i have come to peace with your negativity, and i forgive you. i can only say "sorry" so much before it becomes reduntant and loses its meaning.
please, for your OWN sake, afford yourself the possibility of the peace i've come to know. in other words, FGS, don't blow an artery on my account. cuz i ain't worth it... no matter how much you revile me, how much you once trusted and cared for me.
just let it go. what's done is done.
* - i highly recommend listening to this episode that tackles the topic of memory (and forgetting) in a scientific way, especially if you think i'm full of shit as to what YOU may, or may not, remember... http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2007/06/08