let not the sun go down upon thy wrath, but write thy wrongs in ashes

[tabacoychanel]

There's a Phillip Pullman quote making the rounds on Tumblr, and it's from his introduction to Paradise Lost. It's about the genesis of His Dark Materials:

"Suppose that the prohibition on the knowledge of good and evil were an expression of jealous cruelty, and the gaining of such knowledge an act of virtue? Suppose the Fall should be celebrated

Comments

[mardia]

There is this tendency to do revisionist readings where you come away stanning for the least sympathetic character (Susan was screwed over by C.S. Lewis! Mark Zuckerberg is misunderstood!) and it can be taken to the point that you dislike the characters that the author liked, merely on the grounds that the author liked them.This pretty much sums up my reaction to like, half of Harry Potter fandom, ngl. Anyway, I haven't read Pullman or C.S Lewis in a LONG time, so I can't really contribute to that discussion (seriously, I was in elementary school when I read those books) but as for Good Omens--you know, it's actually really funny, because I started reading that book because I was a fan of Gaiman, and now it is, years later, and I'm a huge fan of Terry Pratchett and I can't remember the last time I picked up a Gaiman book. That being said, and people are probably going to stab me for saying this, but...I was not all that impressed with it? For some reason (and I know this is cracked) but I feel like the meshing of Gaiman with Pratchett

[tabacoychanel]

This pretty much sums up my reaction to like, half of Harry Potter fandom, ngl.
some of the snapefen are kind of extreme about this ngl
how about if i just end all my sentences with ngl

i've been meaning to read discworld since sophomore year of high school, and every time i see one of those paperbacks with the garish clash of purple and green and other colors that don't belong together i go over and thumb through them. however i donut what order to read them in. and would not unless i was sitting in front of my laptop with a wiki tab open. welp. i am indecisive when i am at the library.

I'm going to be super honest, up until the last third of the book, I had to force myself to read through most of it.
GIRL, same here.

this is very relevant!!! robin's goal was a thing of beauty. i stopped watching afterwards. fuck yeah flying dutchmen!!!!

[mardia]

Ahahahaha do not get me started on Snape. Or Draco. Or, you know, any of the Slytherin characters. Otherwise I will burst out into a rant the likes of which you haven't seen (well, except for when I bitch about Cesc transferring to Barca) and I try to keep my fandom bitterness down to a minimum, thank you

[hamsterwoman]

it can be taken to the point that you dislike the characters that the author liked, merely on the grounds that the author liked them.

Heh, that's a good way to summarize the phenomenon. I've definitely seen this a fair bit, and have probably even been guilty of it myself.

True fact: I like neither Lyra or Will very much.I can't say I dislike Will or Lyra, but (and I think this is one of the reasons I apparently can't care less about HDM fanfic even though I consider myself a fan of the books) I don't know that I consider them characters, really. They feel very archetypal and not particularly interesting as people, consequently. (My favorite characters are Lord Asriel, Lee Scoresby, and Iorek, who are pretty much archetypes, too, just more fun ones.) I guess it comes down to allegories not being particularly interesting, on a character level especially, even if they may be allegories one agrees with more than other allegories. (I am glad HDM exists on a meta-fictional level, if that makes sense. But, again, that has little to do

[tabacoychanel]

I don't know that I consider them characters, really. They feel very archetypal and not particularly interesting as people, consequently.
ahhhh thank you for putting the root of my complete disinterest in what is going on in their lives into words. when lyra left, in the end, i wasn't broken up about it at all. when that happens it is a sign that ur doing it wrong.

idk if you've read sally lockhart (i assume not?) but i'm quite attached to sally, and fred and jim and gang actually. tvtropes would have a field day with them, but they're real people, they won't be appearing as figureheads on tarot cards anytime soon.

this is one of the reasons I apparently can't care less about HDM fanfic even though I consider myself a fan of the booksi have read some very good HDM fic but i came across it by accident; i've never felt the urge to look for it like i do for asoiaf or footie or any of my main fandoms. lol allegories. i dunno, narnia fic does pique my interest, so i guess there are other factors as well

[hamsterwoman]

when lyra left, in the end, i wasn't broken up about it at all

Yeah, I wasn't either. (It also occurs to me that it's pretty difficult to show growing up -- the operative word being "growth" -- with characters that are more archetypes than people.)

I have not read Sally Lockhart (though I think I may have seen the books in the library?)

I've read some good HDM fic, too, but never feel like seeking it out. I think I would more readily read Narnia fic, actually -- if only because there's a lot more to subvert there, and if I'm going to read fic of an allegory I think subversion is probably the most likely reason for me to like it.

Well, I'll definitely be curious to see what you think of Discworld if you do give it a shot! But it's pretty much all of the things that didn't seem to work for you in Good Omens, fair warning :P

[firebluespinel]

At the risk of Anna smacking me, I will have to agree with you on part of your Good Omens opinion. On the one hand, it's epic and funny and satirical, but on the other hand, it's academic and stuffy and slow and British. You're absolutely right that it lacked urgency, too. There were several moments I absolutely loved (Death is always fun to see, and Crowley getting trapped in the answering machine is one of my favorite scenes in any book ever written), but Gaiman and Pratchett, surprisingly, turned out to be two great tastes that didn't really taste great together. I LIKED Good Omens for what it was, but I didn't ENJOY reading it, and I much prefer each author's individual work.

Also, I really don't find myself liking Philip Pullman. Like, at all. He just doesn't do anything for me. (Which is what she said.)

[hamsterwoman]

*smacks you* :P

No, I actually agree about the lack of urgency. It didn't read like an apocalyptic plot to me either, not really -- more like a shell game. But it wasn't a detriment to me, personally.

I don't know that I would say Good Omens is an example of author synergy, but for me it's a nice linear combination of the two authors. I like Pratchett more than Gaiman on average, and I would place GO somewhere in the middle between average PTerry and average GNeil. Which are all well above the "love" mark.

[tabacoychanel]

I don't know that I would say Good Omens is an example of author synergy, but for me it's a nice linear combination of the two authors.
i kind of want to stan this sentence

[hamsterwoman]

Aww! You are too kind to my (non-synergistic) mesh of corporate- and geek-speak, but thank you! XD

<3

[svenjaliv]

I was never much of a Pullman or Narnia fan, maybe because I didn't read the books as a kid but as a 12/13-year-old, or maybe because they're just not my thing, I dunno. I do like the Pullman quote, though, and I agree with it, such as it is. I can't say much about what he does with it (although I do recall the Dark MAterials books being rather too dark, confusing, and vaguely threatening for me, but that could be because my English wasn't up to par at the time), but tbh the Christian overtones of Narnia probably bother me more than Pullman's ideas. But I've never been big on things like faith and innocence and that so that's probably got something to do with it.

Either way you put a lot more thought into this stuff than I do, my approach to books is just "do I like it y/n" and that's about as much thinking as I do about it...

I keep meaning to read Good Omens. I have been told that I should. It seems like my type of book. Actually part of why I haven't read it is that people keep telling me to. But that's an issue for another day.

[tabacoychanel]

SVENJA, WHATEVER YOU DO FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT READ GOOD OMENS!!!!!

oh, on the whole i agree with pullman a lot more thani agree with lewis. and that quote, taken by itself, is fine. i mean i read his dark materials when i was what, 14-15, and i feel like the ideas in them were formative in my thinking about ... stuff, so pullman totally gets a lot of props from me. lol at me putting a lot of thought into books though. haha me and my wordvomit.

[haremstress]

I haven't read the Sally Lockhart books, but I really enjoyed reading your comparison anyway. I don't have much else to say except that I'd certainly agree with you if I DID read them XD; I love the nuances of different characters' moralities clashing with their loved ones.

Um, EW @ the Ah Ling business. I'm not saying I had a lot of respect for Phillip Pullman to begin with but it just took a nose dive.

[tabacoychanel]

i'm so glad you read it and found it useful/interesting lina. sometimes i ramble about books nobody has read and i'm positive that no1curr haha.