Fool for love no more?

[thespikeofit]

I preface the following with the statement that I am a Spike fan, Spike is the character I care about more than any other in the Buffyverse. I know this is not the way that the show or the comics are supposed to be viewed - they are primarily the story of Buffy and all the other characters are there to serve her story first and foremost. However,

Comments

[shapinglight]

Great essay. We are obviously fandom brain twins or something.

I also can't see how we got from Spike in AtS season 5 to Spike in the Buffy comic, and resent like hell that we're supposed to fill in the gaps with IDW's output, even though there are parts of their stuff I've enjoyed.

And I honestly didn't think it was possible to make Spike boring but somehow or other Dark Horse have managed to do it. He's opaque and passionless, despite the snark.

Spuffy is in many ways the cut to black scene in Chosen forever -

What a perfect description. Listening to Joss say how much he loves that scene turns my stomach because I know the scene is what it is because he was scared to make it anything more. Also I think that Joss has a tendency to pigeonhole characters in his mind. Spike and Buffy will never really be allowed to break the mould he's stuck them in. He thinks of them as the poster couple for bring your own subtext. I'm so sick of it.

Also, is it okay if I pimp this post or would you rather not?

[thespikeofit]

Thanks.

resent like hell that we're supposed to fill in the gaps with IDW's output

I don't blame IDW for not bridging the gap because they didn't know anything about season 8 Spike. I don't get the impression that Brian Lynch has any intent on having the character change and his idea of segueing into season 8 will not extend beyond 'and then Spike flew off on a spaceship manned by bugs!!!!'.

Also I think that Joss has a tendency to pigeonhole characters in his mind. Spike and Buffy will never really be allowed to break the mould he's stuck them in.

I do think that in much the same way that Buffy and Angel always regress when they're together that Joss will keep Buffy and Spike in this endless holding pattern. I'll also admit Scott Allie's recent Q&A got to me where he seemed to think that having everything be totally ambiguous was a good thing. Sometimes I want my storytellers to have a story and be prepared to tell it.

Also, is it okay if I pimp this post or would you rather not?

Feel free.

[shapinglight]

Sorry I never got around to pimping this (I needed a break, plus my daughter was home). Seems people have found it anyway, which is good.

I don't get the impression that Brian Lynch has any intent on having the character change and his idea of segueing into season 8 will not extend beyond 'and then Spike flew off on a spaceship manned by bugs!!!!'.

You're probably right. IDW's dystopian last story for Angel will probably do a better job of filling in the emotional blanks for that character than Lynch's story does for Spike. For one thing, the latest issue (no 4) is about the only time Lynch has mentioned Buffy in everything he's written for Spike. Up to now, you'd almost think the two of them had never even met.

Sometimes I want my storytellers to have a story and be prepared to tell it.I agree. I also agree with the point you make below. Just because a few people who hated Spuffy in the show like it in season 8 doesn't mean anything. If anything, it means that all the things that made people love Spuffy in the show have been

[thespikeofit]

I hope you had a good weekend away from the internet with your daughter.

I'm sure IDW felt they had to stay away from Buffy which has been a problem for their version of Spike. It's less of an issue for Angel as much of AtS managed to ignore Buffy totally despite Joss's belief that Buffy is the only person that matters to Angel. It doesn't help to explain their mindsets prior to returning to the Buffy series though.

Just because a few people who hated Spuffy in the show like it in season 8 doesn't mean anything. If anything, it means that all the things that made people love Spuffy in the show have been excised to make it palatable for those people. Why on earth should that make me feel better?

Yeah, I think all it really shows is how different in tone season 8 Spuffy is. Clearly some feel it's a fitting continuation but I'm just not prepared to do all the work required to create enough back story for me to make sense of it all.

[rahirah]

YES. THAT.

[thespikeofit]

Thanks.

[norwie2010]

Well, we're in "comic land", finally. Did we get into Dawn's or Xander's head/heartspace why and how they fell in love with each other? Did we get to know why banks were robbed, or humans sacrificed to get at the bad uber vamp in Frayverse? Did we see how Buffy really felt/feels about Xander?

The media format/writers chosen seem(s) to be unable to go into the characters, exploring them in a meaningful way

[thespikeofit]

You're right that this isn't an issue limited to Spike and Buffy, its just where my focus tends to fall. I also agree that 'these writers' seemed incapable of finding a way to convey the inner life of their characters. I'm not a big comic reader but I find it hard to believe the medium is totally to blame - I mean this allows you thought balloons and self-comentary so it isn't as if the tools don't exist for the medium. I do think the replacement of expressive actors by poor drawings and written dialogue is a problem though - not to mention all the other elements that go into setting a mood on film (music, editing

[shipperx]

Unfortunately, I agree with every word you've written, but especially this:

If I were to predict the plan for season 9 I’d say they’ll stay in this mould, there’ll be snark (because that’s what the fans love), and Spike will turn up to provide exposition when required and assistance in battle when required and we’ll end up no further forward. They’ll never actually explore the emotions between these two and just let the fans believe whatever they want about it because it’s all to be as ambiguous as possible - Spuffy is in many ways the cut to black scene in Chosen forever - fans can make up whatever they like for what is going on between the two of them and the text will do its best never to get in the way by actually having anything happen. So if you like that and you’re happy to fill in the gaps then it’ll probably be a great season. I will also predict that Spike will continue to have no meaningful scenes with any other characters whose feelings about Spike we will all be free to assume as we please.

[thespikeofit]

Thanks, I wish I could find some reason to think there was hope of some progression but at the moment it just doesn't seem likely.

[shipperx]

I kind of expected stasis. It's the regression that's killed me. She really did go whole hog giggly, starry eyed teeny-bopper Bangel again, and she went back to treating Spike like she did early Season 5... and there's been a whole hell of a lot of road since then. But that's all gone up in smoke now. They didn't even pick up where the series left of in terms of any of the relationships (Spike/Angel have regressed completely as well). So they backed up before turning on the stasis. It's actually far worse than I had expected... and I didn' thave high expectations to begin with.

[thespikeofit]

Yeah, essentially it seems like Joss doesn't much care for the later seasons of either Buffy or Angel. So he keeps the big developments (at least as far as the Buffy series goes) and we have Dawn and Kennedy, but for the character dynamics he's done his best to shift everyone back. Spike/Buffy is very season 5 which would be fine if you didn't ever see season 7. Buffy/Angel is pure season 2/3. I need to think if this goes further than Buffy and her key relationships.

Anyway, I've been reading on Whedonesque and evidently the dynamic between Spike and Buffy is as clear as day and thus I must conclude I'm just too dim for this comic.

[francy_m79]

Great thoughts!!

That's pretty much where I'm at too. Snark and subtext are not enough for me, not anymore, especially after season 7. It's like the changes and developments in the Spuffy relationship that happened in that season were totally erased. Sometimes I try to be hopeful, but then I go back at feeling like Spike and Buffy will always go in circles, because that's how Joss want them.

[thespikeofit]

Thanks.

So much of the scene could have been taken straight from season 5 - Spike tries to help by bringing information and Buffy is exasperated. Of course then we wouldn't have had the added pep-talk and Spike would have stood up for himself a bit more. I fear Joss thinks he can just reset them to 'snark and subtext' and in time we'll forget there ever was any more to the pairing.