Comments | true_enough: Thinking out loud about gay sex ...

true_enough

Thinking out loud about gay sex ...

Jun 30, 2008 19:04

inthekeyofd posted a very interesting entry HERE about Shaun and Zach from Shelter and what she is and is not ready to read about them doing sexually. What caught my attention was this observation:

"Even though I'm pretty sure that Zach would have done anything that Shaun wanted to do that first night..still, for some strange unknown reason I sort of need ( Read more... )

shelter, meta

Comments 22

farad July 1 2008, 02:44:49 UTC

Um, loosely on point: I have friends, a gay male couple who have been together almost 20 years, consider themselves married, are monogamous, live together, own property together, have come out to both of their families and split holidays between them - as in, go together to family events, and they do not enjoy anal sex and never have. They tried it early on in their relationship, and it didn't work then, and they don't want to try it again. Love's a pretty complicated emotion, and the sex is an important aspect, but not the only one.

Interesting issue.

true_enough July 2 2008, 00:18:38 UTC

... and the sex is an important aspect, but not the only one.

Absolutely. And with Zach and Shaun, their relationship is portrayed in terms of comfort and solace more than carnal heat - although there is definitely that, too. I find that the more I write the more I want to explore the kind of relationship that is about people being drawn to each other in a very powerful way that might express itself sexually but isn't solely focused on sex. I don't know if I can pull it off but I'd like to try.

As per usual, I can't stop looking at your Vin icon. Thank you for that!

farad July 2 2008, 01:29:02 UTC

Icons - back atcha. I adore the rock view (you cannot tell me that there wasn't something between those two that early one ( ... )

true_enough July 4 2008, 04:49:05 UTC

Relationships are constant work and the more 'connected' the people in it, the harder it is, at some levels, to keep it working. There's a lot to be said for the buffer that one has when one can't just look at one's lover and know instantly what he/she is feeling. There's a sort of insulation that isn't there when you feel everything your partner does - and that can get scary and very hard, I think, and it reaches past the sexual.

This is very thought provoking and I just wanted to thank you for that. I think that I have always subscribed to the idea that the more connected someone one is the more comfort that is involved but you make a very good point about that not always being the case. In the gay pirate books that I'm always waving around the two main characters are very attuned to each other to the point that when one is in distress it often sends the other into a downward spiral. Being completely connected is a very romantic notion but sometimes it's probably more loving to have some distance - something that's often hard to ( ... )

I have spoken with gay friends in decade long relationships cattraine July 1 2008, 03:40:49 UTC

who have never done anal sex, those who actually refuse to 'be the woman'and some who won't because to them its always painful no matter how much care is taken and lube used. So, I think the consummation thing is a female thing to some degree.

Re: I have spoken with gay friends in decade long relationships true_enough July 2 2008, 00:31:15 UTC

The two guys I know who have been in a long term relationship are a little more tight lipped about what they do or don't do ::grin:: but we have talked about why gay men even bother acknowledging specific or gender based roles. The whole top-bottom thing seems ridiculous to me. Why would anyone simply resign themselves to one narrow role in bed - especially since the act itself has a lot to do with letting go.

sobelle July 1 2008, 05:38:11 UTC

Just adding a bit of the anecdotal from my gay friends... most say they've either done or tried anal but it isn't something they do much anymore, especially my older friends.

That said, a few of my other friends say they enjoy ass play and have a dildo or two for fun.

(and it cracks me up that they like talking about it so much and showing me their toys... ultimately they're still horny guys I guess ;)

Oh, and there are a group of gay men who totally/militantly eschew penetrative sex, seeing it as a perpetuation of feminization... alas, I can't find anything on google.

dragontatt July 1 2008, 11:29:10 UTC

http://cock2cock.com/preview/welcome.html

This is one website....

sobelle July 1 2008, 17:22:02 UTC

Thanks and through that link I found the one that I specifically remembered ...http://www.man2manalliance.org/
Fidelity and Frot...

After writing last night I reminisced a bit about my time in San Francisco in the 1970's... where my gay/bi musician and artist friends would take me along with them to the bath houses... where I saw enough anal sex (and more) to last a life time... and it certainly did last a life time for almost all of them... being taken away by the subsequent plague.

I have very few (gay/bi) friends left from that era. And I would most likely have perished right along with them but for a monogamous relationship in 1975 that surely saved my life.

I still grieve over the loss of those beautiful young men who were just celebrating a hedonistic life to the max. :(

true_enough July 2 2008, 00:55:20 UTC

I think most people have tried things in bed that ultimately get put in the "Uh, No" file. Not a tragedy or even traumatic but simply that was interesting but, no thanks. I have a feeling that anal sex gets put in that file a lot.

I checked out the link you have below and I found this passage very interesting:

In addition, no magic or wishful thinking can transform either the anus or the rectum into genital organs, nor can the feelings experienced by a man being penetrated anally be compared to those of genital stimulation.

Further, anal penetration subjugates one of the participants to the other, effectively emasculating him, turning him into a pseudo-woman, a proxy for heterosexual contact. This is an inherently unequal act, epitomized by its tedious terminology of "tops" and "bottoms," which is unmindful of the basic human need for a shared experience without pain and with dignity.I really don't buy into the idea that simply because a woman can be penetrated that we've somehow been subjugated but in relation to two men in bed ( ... )

Thread 7

smilla02 July 1 2008, 12:50:30 UTC

First, I am now free so to speak because I have packing to do for the big move o' doom, to finally sit and watch Shelter. /random information *g*]

Apart form that, it's a very interesting issue you bring. I have gay friends but I'm reserved by nature so the subject never came up.
This said, it's not a long stretch for me to believe that anal penetration isn't the end-it-all of a sexual encounter between two men. Hell, I don't think penetration is that in an etero relationship. There are a lot of ways to physical love and homosexual love is no exception, me thinks.

♥ you just for the heck of it!

true_enough July 2 2008, 01:13:19 UTC

Random information from you is always welcome. Bring it on. I'm looking forward to hearing what you think about Shelter one way or another but the move o' doom sounds epic and I want you to take care of yourself first. I'll just be over here ... drumming my fingers ... whistling ... waiting patiently for your word. No rush ... none at all ... take your time ... ::drums fingers::

I'm the same way with my gay friends but we have talked about why gay men even bother acknowledging specific or gender based roles. The whole top-bottom thing seems like such a narrow role to put yourself in what the act itself is about letting go.

There are a lot of ways to physical love and homosexual love is no exception, me thinks.

Absolutely. And with these characters in particular it seems to be rooted solidly in comfort and solace.

Big ♥ because you bring it out in me!

smilla02 July 2 2008, 12:29:27 UTC

The whole top-bottom thing seems like such a narrow role to put yourself in what the act itself is about letting go.
*nods so forcefully my head is in danger of being dislodged from the neck* Man, I see this bottom against top representation of a relationship so often in almost all the fandoms I frequent and it just doesn't work for me. Maybe, as you say below in one of your comment, the reason is that I don't see any submission in being on the bottom, not as a woman anyway, and it confuses me so much to see people implying that there's necessarily a sort of giving up in being on the bottom in term of power in the relationship ( ... )

inthekeyofd July 1 2008, 12:57:48 UTC

I literally was out all night after I got home from work yesterday..YAY FOR LIVE MUSIC, I'm just seeing this so sorry for the late reply, my problem is with fics that either have Zach being an expert at it or worse, and I will get flamed for this..him saying things or acting totally OOC, and that coupled with my need to sort of see them work up to that is what my post was about, it's hard to explain, either it's that they didn't show it or the fact there isn't a flood of fics yet, that could be it, but for some reason I need to almost see them take it slow and work up to that ( ... )

true_enough July 2 2008, 01:54:20 UTC

No,no, no. Never feel like you have to rush back and reply. I just thought your post was very interesting and it made me want to think out loud about gender roles in bed and what is and is not expected in fanfiction.

... my problem is with fics that either have Zach being an expert at it or worse, and I will get flamed for this..him saying things or acting totally OOC ...

I totally share your feelings about this. There is something about these characters in particular that makes me think that their main connection is firmly rooted in solace and while it's expressed sexually they probably don't routinely talk dirty or hang from the chandeliers.

... but I did say I know some gay men that detest anal sex, one of my friends basically said that he's got no problem with using his mouth or his hand but penetration, it's not happening.

In a reply above sobelle posted a link to the Man2Man Alliance who have very similar views about anal sex and also about gender roles (top-bottom) in bed. I know that I've made jokes about Zach and Shaun ( ... )