FREE-FOR-ALL META COMMENT-A-THON

[upupa_epops]

Old news: lj is dead. Everyone is crazy busy, or they have other reasons not to be here. No one has time to read those huge meta posts we used to write once upon a time. But maybe we can all find ten minutes to do this:

FREE-FOR-ALL META COMMENT-A-THON!

Comments

[kwritten]

btvs | Anything Dawn/Key-related, honestly.

[sistergrimmel]

Is it just me, or does your opinion of Dawn depend heavily on the age you were when you watched? I did a great rewatch of Buffy recently, and I am so much more sympathetic in "Blood Ties" until I realize--oh--it's Buffy's birthday when this is happening.

When I was younger, I super identified with Dawn. Now that I'm older, I see both sides of the Dawn hate. I just hope I never get so old I won't think Spike and Dawn's relationship is adorable. It reveals a side of Spike Buffy alone cannot. The pet names, the adoration and protection he gave Drusilla didn't go to Buffy, who he views as a person, not a thing to be protected (and rightfully so). It went to... Dawn, and later Fred. William after all these years still wants to be somebody's knight, and for a period of time, Dawn let him do that.

[kwritten]

Is it just me, or does your opinion of Dawn depend heavily on the age you were when you watched?
I actually talk to people about this a lot and it really doesn't. I have talked to people who watched in when they were older who can't stand Dawn and people who were younger who also don't like her. Likewise, I know a lot of people who watched when they were older and felt a lot of empathy for Dawn. Also people who watched as teens and hugely identified with Dawn. I personally watched BtVS in full in my early twenties. (To be fair, I saw "Once More with Feeling" and a few other late-season episodes while in HS, but didn't really get serious and watch the entire series until I was a senior in college.)

So... no. I've done polls and stuff to see if this is true. I also thought that maybe it depended upon HOW you view the series - late arriver, mainliner, in-time viewer; but everything about that was inconclusive, also. It really is a deeply personal reaction - much like most of anything, really

[ext_1473268]

A lot of Dawn haters focus on her "whining," which...duh, she's 13-14. But the thing they forget is that we don't ever SEE Buffy (or any of the scoobs) when they are this age. I'm absolutely, one-hundred percent certain that Buffy at 13/14, was JUST as bad, if not worse. Heck, in a way, in Welcome to the Hellmouth, she's pretty darn "whiny" at 15 - not that she doesn't have a good reason, but I don't think being the Slayer is any more traumatic than finding out your life is a lie and a big bad wants to kill you and destroy the world with your blood.

[kwritten]

A lot of Dawn haters focus on her "whining,"
Interestingly, a lot of Buffy-haters also focus on her "whining" - I actually have a very good friend who LOVES BtVS, but is not actually that fond of Buffy. (I myself have moments where SMG drives me completely up the wall - there's something very visceral about her that I just do NOT like and over the years I've had to train myself to look past the SMG in order to love the Buffy.)

Heck, in a way, in Welcome to the Hellmouth, she's pretty darn "whiny" at 15 - not that she doesn't have a good reason, but I don't think being the Slayer is any more traumatic than finding out your life is a lie and a big bad wants to kill you and destroy the world with your blood.The symmetry of Buffy/Dawn and their lives changing with the fact of a word - "Slayer" "Key" - has never been lost on me. Or the fact that while Buffy was 15 when she came to Sunnydale - she had been the Slayer for quite a while longer. Which means that they were roughly the same age when their worlds and identities ended

[upupa_epops]

A lot of Dawn haters focus on her "whining," which...duh, she's 13-14.

This is what surprised me the most when I found out that fandom tends to hate Dawn. Because I actually loved her capability to be a little 14yo pain in the ass. I loved how realistic it was, and how funny when it came to those small everyday fights with Buffy.

[red_satin_doll]

A lot of Dawn haters focus on her "whining,"

Back in the '80's I read comments in the newpaper or a magazine column from some asshole who said that women would never hold high office in the US (presidency) because we're not as likeable/affable and our voices can be unpleasant to listen to compared to men's. I do not have to tell you what I think about that.

But I do think there is something of that here (and in some people's dislike of Buffy as well.) When people say she's whiny, I think what they are unconsciously saying is that they don't like her voice - or the volume when she raises her voice. (I'm on the receiving end of that a lot at home myself, so I admit bias here.)

but I don't think being the Slayer is any more traumatic than finding out your life is a lie and a big bad wants to kill you and destroy the world with your blood.

IKR?

[sistergrimmel]

I wasn't trying to imply that Blood Ties was somehow unjustified because of it being Buffy's birthday. And yes, that is always a disaster.

I was just curious about that. I haven't conducted polls or anything, so I will absolutely take your word for it on the Dawn hate. I'm not a Dawn hater. I do get why some people find her annoying, but when she's written well, it's BtVS at its best--deeply personal conflicts made worse by supernatural complications. It kept the paranormal relatable, and I loved the hell out of the Season Five finale.

[red_satin_doll]

I never understood the extent of the Dawn hate - and I watched the show at a pretty fast clip last year for the first time as a forty-something woman. Then again I don't get the Buffy hate, Kennedy hate, or Marti hate either. Dislike? Sure. But industrial-sized containers of vitriol? *SMH

[red_satin_doll]

BTW - does fandom have any interest in the violating nature of the monks' spell? It works in reverse of Angel's mindwipe of Buffy in IWRY, Glory's mindwipe of her victims, Willow of Tara, etc - instead of taking away memories it's inserting them without the consent of the recipients. I'm not sure if the writers really made the connection in-canon (then again, Angel seems to get a free pass for his actions in that ep from them) but does fandom in general?

Also, I tend to fanwank Dawn's sudden skill with ancient languages in S7 as a leftover fragment of her Keyness (or perhaps proof it hasn't entirely gone away at all), but I suspect the writers just popped that in for convenience sake and really didn't think about it that deeply.

[fray_adjacent12]

Aw, it's a pro-Dawn thread! I'm always a bit taken aback by the complaints about Dawn -- and, as discussed above, Buffy, Willow, and a lot of others -- as " whiny". Because to me, that word means you don't have legitimate problems to complain about, and I'm like, "huh?" I mean, the emotional impact of what the characters go through -- that their experiences change them, and not always for the better -- is one of my favorite aspects of the show. I don't need a bunch of Teflon Kids

[red_satin_doll]

I only saw this now so very sorry for the delay.

BTW, I assume you've read Umad Learns Sumerian? (I assume because I am late to every party.) it's totally my head canon now.

I have now, thank you! I linked to this in my metasplurgy conversation with lanoyee about Dawn which I'm thinking you must have seen; it fit perfectly into our discussion.

I'll probably ending posting my thoughts about Dawn from here to my own LJ soon. I blame kwritten for making me (us) take Dawn more seriously.

BTW - thank you again SO MUCH for linking to my two most recent posts! Women of the Buffyverse FTW.

[fray_adjacent12]

Yes! I did see it. :D

[shobogan]

I adore Dawn, always have. Even as a teenager I felt really protective and, IDK, parental, as much as you can wrt a fictional character.

I think a lot of criticism overlooks the fact that, at a very young age, Dawn had her entire identity, her whole self, brutally and suddenly challenged. A lot of young people question their identity, but as usual in Buffy, it was amped to a thousand here. Of course she reacted badly; of course she didn't know how to deal with it. I think the fact that she came back from that says a lot for her strength of character

[red_satin_doll]

I think a lot of criticism overlooks the fact that, at a very young age, Dawn had her entire identity, her whole self, brutally and suddenly challenged. A lot of young people question their identity, but as usual in Buffy, it was amped to a thousand here. Of course she reacted badly; of course she didn't know how to deal with it. I think the fact that she came back from that says a lot for her strength of character.

Then she loses her mother, and then she loses Buffy - two of the people who define her existence, whose love and memories created her. And when Buffy comes back, it feels like that connection is lost. She, then, is lost, and it makes perfect sense. I don't blame Buffy for not being in a good place to care for Dawn, but I don't blame Dawn for not being able to handle it either.

WORD to all of this. I was recently talking with lanoyee re: the comparisons btwn Riley in ITW and Dawn in Blood Ties and the issue of identity - and I'd say Dawn has a much bigger, scarier problem and she still handles it a HELL of a lot better