Joss Whedon, his body of work, and Feminism. OK, Go! :)

[jayhuck]

I originally planned to have a private discussion with a friend regarding the place where Feminism and Joss Whedon's body of work, specifically his characters, intersect/overlap (or don't intersect/overlap as the case may be). We both thought it might be more interesting to have that discussion here where more people could comment on the topic. I'm

Comments

Pic

[jayhuck]

DEAR GOD someone please tell me how to resize a photo on LJ. My eyes are blurry and tired. I will try to tone it down tomorrow ;)

Re: Pic

[clevermanka]

To resize a picture, put the following in <> brackets:

img height="400" src="http://whatever.com/img.jpg"

Of course, substitute whatever you want the displayed height to be for the "400" number.

Re: Pic

[jayhuck]

THANK YOU! <3 :)

[aemckim]

The picture is fine.. I'll come up with a more intelligent comment after sleep occurs.

Strong Female Characters

[jayhuck]

Here is an issue/question that was touched on elsewhere by my friend CleverManka. Do you feel Joss writes truly strong female characters and why? As someone somewhere pointed out, just because a female character can kick your ass doesn't necessarily make her "strong". And what would/should a strong female character look like? I was going to clarify your point a bit more Clever but I will let you do it if you like.

[clevermanka]

Sorry, bb! I must've taken you off my F-list when you didn't post for, like, five years. So I didn't see this.

My beef with Whedon and his Strong Female Characters is that, one, they kind of really aren't (strong, that is), and I'm not entirely certain Whedon actually understands feminism. Or if he does understand it, I don't think he is one. He seems a little too interested in either setting women on a pedestal or tearing them down--or both at the same time.

You know I'm coming from this having not seen Buffy. And honestly, as much as I adore you, I'm not sure I ever will be able to watch it. For one, there's just SO MUCH of it, and for two, I've read too many articles like this one that make me go NO THANK YOU.

That article also points out the horrible issues with Firefly. Issues that I noticed while I was watching the show. I hated the mixed messages regarding the way Inara was (theoretically) written with how she actually behaved and was treated. I hated Kaylee's increasingly grating magical chipperness which bordered on her

[jayhuck]

Another thing that might actually help this discussion is to come to an understanding of what feminism is. There seem to be so many definitions of it out in cyberspace it leads me to wonder just how different people might define it. It might be best to have a working definition though ;)

[clevermanka]

I don't think anyone can define feminism since it does mean different things to different people. Some people think men can't be feminists, for example.

But I think we can both agree what feminism is not, and that would be things that pretend to build up women but in actuality and practice undermine the portrayal of them as strong and capable.

[jayhuck]

I think we can actually agree on that :) I think our opinions might differ on whether or not a particular "thing" truly undermines a particular character. But yes we can definitely agree on this

[jayhuck]

Does he actually tout himself as a feminist? I honestly don't know. I actually do see him as one and I think Buffy was one of those examples I see as a very strong female character - not just a female character, but a strong individual/person. I wish I could speak better to his other shows but I don't know them as well. Dollhouse, well, I think his issue there, like most of his other issues isn't truly about prostitution, its about mind control and brainwashing, themes you find running throughout almost all of his stuff - the prostitution thing seems incidental. And I will say this of Dollhouse, in terms of the characters, it did have both female and male "dolls", if that means anything. I wish we could discuss Buffy in more detail. And, despite the fact that there are obvious flaws in his characters, that doesn't mean he doesn't write strong individuals both male and female. RE: Buffy, no worries Clever - It it quite a bit to take on. As for most of the criticism of her I've seen to date however its most often coming from

[clevermanka]

Does he actually tout himself as a feminist?

I would say, yes, he does.

the prostitution thing seems incidental

But it isn't. It isn't incidental. It's crucial to the plot of the show that she sells her body. If it was "incidental," she could have been a plain old spy. Or a cop. Or something. But no, she's a sex worker. And that is problematic, Jason. It is not incidental. And it is something he chose to make crucial to the character.

I think you can afford to be less...diligent? about this sort of thing (saying it isn't really about prostitution, or that only happens in a few episodes) because you are viewing it from a place of male privilege. And there's nothing wrong with being in a place of privilege. You just need to be aware that you have it, and that it will always color your perceptions.

And obviously, Whedon is writing from a place of privilege, too. I'm sure he finds it okay to think "Well, this rape issue doesn't happen very often in the story, and rapes really do happen in real life, so I'll use it to promote this

[jayhuck]

Well, I'm not actually trying to be diligent here, or at least I don't think I am, but I have touted myself as a JW apologist before so who knows my true motives ;), but what I said about there being an overriding theme of brainwashing and mind control in almost all of his works is still very much true. Is it less problematic, from your perspective, that he has both male and female "dolls"? I didn't watch this show much so I don't know a great deal about how he approaches some of these issues.

[clevermanka]

No, that doesn't make it less problematic at all. Far and away women are more affected by the issues that spring from sex work in our culture.